AFR looks too high

[ercBOOSTED]

I ran my ski today with the E1 wheel and new intercooler. Numbers were 79.7 with a full tank and rpms were between 8400-8500. Had fuel pressure at 64 psi. AFR moved around alot. It was between 12.5 and 13.5 at wot. Sometimes it said 0??? Does this mean I want to turn it up to 66 -67? Why is the reading 0 sometimes at wot? Log is attached.

[AD4342]

Eric,

You have an interesting log, did you notice that fuel injector duty cycle gets way over 100% :smt119:smt119on your full throttle?!!? I guess that explains the lean spots showing in your lambda at full throttle... i guess you would need to increase you fuel pressure or do something with your fuel map:-k

[ercBOOSTED]

Ya I noticed that it got way high. I'm going to set the fuel pressure at 67 psi and see what happens. I remember others had the fuel injectors going over 100% so I want to see what they have to say. I'm waiting on Nils to give me a call back.

[SHOBiz]

It's real easy to make minor changes in the pressure (like 1 psi at a time). I use a glycerin filled Edelbrock fuel pressure gauge on the line at the rail using R&D's fuel pressure fitting thing a ma job. A spark plug socket fits the lock nut and then you just need a hex wrench to adjust pressure on the regulator. Should be able to be on the water and easily make these changes.

BTW, I have ran as high as 70psi with the stock injectors and still was just a little lean at WOT. I wouldn't jump right to that pressure though.

[ercBOOSTED]

Biz, what do you think about the the fuel injectors being waaaaaayyyyyy high at WOT? Is that a problem? You are right that changing the fuel pressure is easy.

[SHOBiz]

I would say that if duty cycle is high, WOT is often needed, and the logs indicate the Lambda needs improvement at WOT you need to look at higher flow injectors. Lambda can can make a big difference in engine temp among many other things...

.02

[ercBOOSTED]

Injectors are definitely in the plans but I think nils said they don't have a map for the different injectors yet.

[SHOBiz]

Injectors are definitely in the plans but I think nils said they don't have a map for the different injectors yet.


My next question would be a respectful, "Why not?"

[desperado]

You do not need a new map. You only need to do a global trim to your current fuel map. You need to reduce injection time to compensate for higher flow volume. If your fuel curve was right on your current map, then it will be right with higher flow injectors... you just need to perform an overall flow correction to get to your desired afr. A simple rule of thumb.... if you install injectors that flow 20% more.... then trim down your injection time by 75% of that (20% X 0.75 = 15%, which is safe), go test and perform fine tuning of your global trim until you get the desired AFR.

[ercBOOSTED]

Probably going to hold off on new injectors till next year. I have a month or two of riding left for the season. I'll enjoy my ski for a while till its done for the season.

[MoTeC Pete]

My next question would be a respectful, "Why not?"

Hi Guys
Gotta get the YAMMI back on the dyno and get you a map for for some bigger injectors.
Only so many hours in a day I am afraid and we have multiple projects on at the moment.
I will do 2 more maps.
1 with the pink injectors and 1 with the new Injector dynamic 725cc

Just arrived in Nashville last night so wont be back to Aussie for a week.
Will get on to it within a couple of weeks after that.
Trying my best.

Cheers

:)

[SHOBiz]

Hi Guys
Gotta get the YAMMI back on the dyno and get you a map for for some bigger injectors.
Only so many hours in a day I am afraid and we have multiple projects on at the moment.
I will do 2 more maps.
1 with the pink injectors and 1 with the new Injector dynamic 725cc

Just arrived in Nashville last night so wont be back to Aussie for a week.
Will get on to it within a couple of weeks after that.
Trying my best.

Cheers

:)


All good, that's why I made sure the "respectfully" part was in there. :)

[ercBOOSTED]

Thats what I like to hear Pete! Let us know when the new map is done. I'm too much of an idiot to try to adjust stuff on my own. I wish that I had a tenth of the knowledge that some of the tuning guys have.

[desperado]

Pete,

Did my own fuel map to fit the E1 with the pink STI 550cc injectors using rising rate with FP. All good and steady afr in all sectors. Biggest tuning effort was under 5,000rpm below 100kpa sectors. Fair amount of work but worth the time investment.

Let me know when you get the dyno setup for a few more runs with the Yamaha engine... I would really like to send you my tune file, which includes many other changes, and get your comments/suggestions to further improve.

Regards

M

[MoTeC Pete]

Pete,

Did my own fuel map to fit the E1 with the pink STI 550cc injectors using rising rate with FP. All good and steady afr in all sectors. Biggest tuning effort was under 5,000rpm below 100kpa sectors. Fair amount of work but worth the time investment.

Let me know when you get the dyno setup for a few more runs with the Yamaha engine... I would really like to send you my tune file, which includes many other changes, and get your comments/suggestions to further improve.

Regards

M

Ok Rodger that
Send any thing you want, I sure it will be good

:)

[MoTeC Pete]

Thats what I like to hear Pete! Let us know when the new map is done. I'm too much of an idiot to try to adjust stuff on my own. I wish that I had a tenth of the knowledge that some of the tuning guys have.

You know what???
You could tune this stuff, you just gotta learn, its not that hard and if you take your time you will be ok.
Get to a seminar or start reading the help etc.
No need to be an expert.
Cheers

:)

[Carlos Thomas]

Pete,

I am looking to take your classes at the world finals after I win a world champion or two. Can you tell me about these other injectors you got. Do you have pics? Also do you have the name brand and costs?

[MoTeC Pete]

Pete,

I am looking to take your classes at the world finals after I win a world champion or two. Can you tell me about these other injectors you got. Do you have pics? Also do you have the name brand and costs?

Hi Carlos
They are called ID 725s
They are produced by a company called Yaw Power
Paul Yaw is the current injector guru and his whole business is pretty much dedicated to performance injectors.
You need a range of adapters to run them.
The injectors themselves are about 140 USD I think then you need some adapter tops and different electrical connectors, although we made up adapters for the engine here.
The only only other thing you need is a 24mm spacer for the fuel rail.

Talk to Bill at R&D or Nils about getting some.

You dont need to win any world championships to come to the seminar, its designed to be easily understood by anyone.

Cheers

:)

[Carlos Thomas]

Hi Carlos
They are called ID 725s
They are produced by a company called Yaw Power
Paul Yaw is the current injector guru and his whole business is pretty much dedicated to performance injectors.
You need a range of adapters to run them.
The injectors themselves are about 140 USD I think then you need some adapeter tops and different electrical connectors, although we made up adapters for the engine here.
The only only other thing you need as a 24mm spacer for the fuel rail.

Talk to Bill at R&D or Nils about getting some.

You dont need to win any world championships to come to the seminar, its designed to be easily understood by anyone.

Cheers

:)

This stuff is what I found when I went to www.yawpower.com Is this it?

http://www.injectordynamics.com/IDWEBPIC.jpg

[SHOBiz]

Indeed, what's the 411 on these injectors. Ya'll know I will buy then just for the hell of it. :)

Need Delphi adapters?

Heck, they even look nice.

[MoTeC Pete]

This stuff is what I found when I went to www.yawpower.com (http://www.yawpower.com) Is this it?

http://www.injectordynamics.com/IDWEBPIC.jpg

Thats them
What you want is at the top of the picture
Thats the 725 with the 11mm adapter top
They have electrical adapters to fit straight to your existing loom
Then you simply make 3 X 24mm spacers for the fuel rail and job done.

Cheers

:)

[Carlos Thomas]

I just placed an order for some 555cc injectors for $298 for a set of 4. Are you staying these 725cc injectors are $140 for a set of 4 or approximately $140/ea? Are the 725cc injectors overkill or are the 555cc injectors are Jerry's Web Store still cutting it close?

http://www.4-tecperformance.com/images/shofzr%20injectors1.jpg

[MoTeC Pete]

I just placed an order for some 555cc injectors for $298 for a set of 4. Are you staying these 725cc injectors are $140 for a set of 4 or approximately $140/ea? Are the 725cc injectors overkill or are the 555cc injectors are Jerry's Web Store still cutting it close?

http://www.4-tecperformance.com/images/shofzr%20injectors1.jpg

Hi Carlos
Here is a quote from Jerrys FZR thread that I just posted, seems quite relevent to put it here.
You can draw your own conclusions

This test was using the 725 cc injectors
and yes they would be about $140.00 each.

Ok, Inj duty is effected by 4 different things
1. RPM, The higher the rpm the less available time to open the injector
2. AFR, The richer the mixture the higher the inj duty
3. Fuel Pressure, The lower the fuel pressure the higher the inj duty
4. Air Flow, more boost, colder air = more fuel and higher inj duty

So I tested with close to the 4 worst scenarios.

RPM = 8500
AFR = 0.80 (11.:cool:
FP = 50 PSI (Std Fuel System)
Boost = 15 PSI
Air T = 25 (77 F)

Injector Duty = 85%

This run made 342 HP

You will struggle to ever need more fuel than that with out dramatically lifting boost or changing the engine cams etc
The std fuel system seems to be able to flow a bit over 400HP at 50PSI so if you were going to produce much more power then 350 it would be time for a pump anyway.

Yaw Power do an equaly nice set of 1000 cc injectors for people who want those higher power levels and the engine will still idle like a sewing machine with those in it.

Cheers

:smile:

[desperado]

Hi Carlos
Here is a quote from Jerrys FZR thread that I just posted, seems quite relevent to put it here.
You can draw your own conclusions

This test was using the 725 cc injectors
and yes they would be about $140.00 each.

Ok, Inj duty is effected by 4 different things
1. RPM, The higher the rpm the less available time to open the injector
2. AFR, The richer the mixture the higher the inj duty
3. Fuel Pressure, The lower the fuel pressure the higher the inj duty
4. Air Flow, more boost, colder air = more fuel and higher inj duty

So I tested with close to the 4 worst scenarios.

RPM = 8500
AFR = 0.80 (11.:cool:
FP = 50 PSI (Std Fuel System)
Boost = 15 PSI
Air T = 25 (77 F)

Injector Duty = 85%

This run made 342 HP

You will struggle to ever need more fuel than that with out dramatically lifting boost or changing the engine cams etc
The std fuel system seems to be able to flow a bit over 400HP at 50PSI so if you were going to produce much more power then 350 it would be time for a pump anyway.

Yaw Power do an equaly nice set of 1000 cc injectors for people who want those higher power levels and the engine will still idle like a sewing machine with those in it.

Cheers

:smile:

Pete,

Did you look at AFR variance between cylinders during your recent dyno runs?

[JD 1]

Hi Carlos
Here is a quote from Jerrys FZR thread that I just posted, seems quite relevent to put it here.
You can draw your own conclusions

This test was using the 725 cc injectors
and yes they would be about $140.00 each.

Ok, Inj duty is effected by 4 different things
1. RPM, The higher the rpm the less available time to open the injector
2. AFR, The richer the mixture the higher the inj duty
3. Fuel Pressure, The lower the fuel pressure the higher the inj duty
4. Air Flow, more boost, colder air = more fuel and higher inj duty

So I tested with close to the 4 worst scenarios.

RPM = 8500
AFR = 0.80 (11.:cool:
FP = 50 PSI (Std Fuel System)
Boost = 15 PSI
Air T = 25 (77 F)

Injector Duty = 85%

This run made 342 HP

You will struggle to ever need more fuel than that with out dramatically lifting boost or changing the engine cams etc
The std fuel system seems to be able to flow a bit over 400HP at 50PSI so if you were going to produce much more power then 350 it would be time for a pump anyway.

Yaw Power do an equaly nice set of 1000 cc injectors for people who want those higher power levels and the engine will still idle like a sewing machine with those in it.

Cheers

:smile:

$140. Au$, not US$ correct?

[MoTeC Pete]

Pete,

Did you look at AFR variance between cylinders during your recent dyno runs?

Hi
No I didnt get all the multilambda gear on, its quite a big job and we had another engine qued up to go on the dyno.
Sorry :(

[MoTeC Pete]

$140. Au$, not US$ correct?

Neither
Just a guess of what I though they would be based on rough RRP
End pricing from MoTeC USA or any of it dealers would have to come from them.
The dollars are not to far apart at the moment
:)