The stage II Matrix is running again

[ph2ocraft]

Well I'm off to the lake Thursday for this extended weekend and we'll see what she does again. It sounds great on the trailer, it still has that famous CRACK when goosed. LOL I'm looking forward to getting back a day early and hitting the quads. I just taught my son to use a clutch so he's all GUNG HO!!

[Bone1050]

whew thats sweet , i havent been following on this project you have any pictures buddy ? i wonder what it will do also,

im so jealous got tha sltx an matrix i wanna matrix now but my sltx is still my baby

[ph2ocraft]

Clixk on my gallery and go to Matrix, you'll find tons of pictures. I'll have a 1350 for the 04 pretty shortly.:-$

[CrazyA]

Well I'm off to the lake Thursday for this extended weekend and we'll see what she does again.

What was found, and what has been changed since last time?

# of fuel supply's?

Water exit routing?

Jetting? (did you fatten up the low and midrange areas?)


I DO NOT like this!!! (see pic below)

[Bone1050]

ph2o your my brother from a different mother wish i was in cali so i could rip it up all year ,

my rig is just sitting in tha lonely truck bay at tha end of my shop screaming an crying ride me ,

i seen these guys rideing yesterday , i was just shakeing my head oh god know , tha air is average temp of 40-50* imagine tha water has got 2 be 35-40 ,

i dont want any lake sweat in my motor so ill pass till march ,

[ph2ocraft]

What was found, and what has been changed since last time?

# of fuel supply's?

Water exit routing?

Jetting? (did you fatten up the low and midrange areas?)



Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs, you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
Less items to check or have go wrong.

In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston, gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.

I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:-x

I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....

More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???

[CrazyA]

Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

Al,
Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!! :lol:

In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?

How do you know this??? :lol: ;) If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.

If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,

I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!! :shock:

you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.

Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!! :smt100

Less items to check or have go wrong.

In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,

That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.

gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.

I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:-x

That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!! :lol:

I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL

Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!

So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....

More fuel, less timing?

More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???.

[ph2ocraft]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph2ocraft http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168421#post168421)
Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

Al,
Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!! :lol:
LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?

How do you know this??? :lol: :wink: If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.
I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would??:p .

If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,

I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!! :shock:
If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.

you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.

Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!! :smt100
My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.:shock:

Less items to check or have go wrong.

In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,

That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.
The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL

gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.

I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:mad:

That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!! :lol:
I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL

Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!

So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....

More fuel, less timing?
I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??

More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???

I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).

[CrazyA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph2ocraft http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168421#post168421)
Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

Al,
Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!! :lol:
LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
No such thing... if it's supplying exactly what it needs to, how would anything more be safer?
In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
How do you know this??? :lol: :wink: If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.
I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
I'll agree to that, IF, you agree then that it makes no difference where the return fitting is located on the SL 750 rail. 6lbs. is 6lbs, doesn't matter if you return it in the front or rear.
I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would??:p .
You got me!!! :lol:
If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,
I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!! :shock:
If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.
Believe me, I understand "partial blockage". You said, "With the single feed line PLUGGED or partially blocked..." I was questioning the PLUGGRD part.
you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!! :smt100
My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.:shock:
Mine says the same about me, so it's a draw there!!! 8-[ :shock: :lol:
Less items to check or have go wrong.
In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,
That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.
The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL
$hit, pocket lint for you!!! :D
gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.
I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:mad:
That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!! :lol:
I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
I hope you do this sooner than later.
I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!
So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....
More fuel, less timing?
I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??
More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???
I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).

All kidding aside, I like to run multiple feeds and ALWAYS check fuel pressure. It's better (in my opinion) to have overkill available. I'm not worried about more things to go wrong, I'm worried about making sure that there's enough of a supply that I never have to have these "second guess" thoughts.

[Altron]

Wow guys this is great stuff. Al, I sure hope that when we finally get together for a ride that you can teach me some of this two stroke stuff. After my 150 rebuild I am ready for another challenge.

[ph2ocraft]

Originally Posted by ph2ocraft http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168517#post168517)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph2ocraft http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168421#post168421)
Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

Al,
Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!! :lol:
LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
No such thing... if it's supplying exactly what it needs to, how would anything more be safer?
Well............not exactly, the carbs are taking what they need and returning the rest to the tank. So if I can have more at hand IF needed, it's there.
An example; Let's say I have side mounted 48's and take a long hard left bender and the diaghrams aren't able to operate at full potential due to the G's, it's nice to have that "extra" fuel sitting in the high entry blocks, right??
Don't ask me for another example, that was the best I had.:p


In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
How do you know this??? :lol: :wink: If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.
I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
I'll agree to that, IF, you agree then that it makes no difference where the return fitting is located on the SL 750 rail. 6lbs. is 6lbs, doesn't matter if you return it in the front or rear.
It certainly doesn't matter if it exits front or rear or center or anywhere else as long as the restrictor is on the hose leading to the tank.


I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would??:razz: .
You got me!!! :lol:
If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,
I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!! :shock:
If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.
Believe me, I understand "partial blockage". You said, "With the single feed line PLUGGED or partially blocked..." I was questioning the PLUGGRD part.
My error indeed (as your mis-spelling plugged:p :p ), I meant partially plugged or partially blocked.


you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!! :smt100
My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.:shock:
Mine says the same about me, so it's a draw there!!! 8-[ :shock: :lol:
Hehe, indeed!


Less items to check or have go wrong.
In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,
That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.
The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL
$hit, pocket lint for you!!! :grin:
$hit if I had your money, I'd burn mine.:shock:


gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.
I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:mad:
That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!! :lol:
I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
I hope you do this sooner than later.
I'll do it before first ride BUT at the lake. I do like cooler rather than hotter.


I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!
So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....
More fuel, less timing?
I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??
More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???
I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).

Again, I must run. crazy, you are a great volleyer (sp), it's been a pleasure!!=D>

[ph2ocraft]

Wow guys this is great stuff. Al, I sure hope that when we finally get together for a ride that you can teach me some of this two stroke stuff. After my 150 rebuild I am ready for another challenge.

Well I just happen to have another 140 hull needing the triples and engine stuffed into her......:D

[Altron]

Can I help? That sounds like a fun project.

[CrazyA]

Originally Posted by ph2ocraft http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168517#post168517)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph2ocraft http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?p=168421#post168421)
Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

Al,
Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!! :lol:
LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
No such thing... if it's supplying exactly what it needs to, how would anything more be safer?
Well............not exactly, the carbs are taking what they need and returning the rest to the tank. So if I can have more at hand IF needed, it's there.
An example; Let's say I have side mounted 48's and take a long hard left bender and the diaghrams aren't able to operate at full potential due to the G's, it's nice to have that "extra" fuel sitting in the high entry blocks, right??
Don't ask me for another example, that was the best I had.:p
Which is exactly why I've always advocated mutiple supply lines, both now, and many times in the past on the phone with you!!!

In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
How do you know this??? :lol: :wink: If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.
I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
I'll agree to that, IF, you agree then that it makes no difference where the return fitting is located on the SL 750 rail. 6lbs. is 6lbs, doesn't matter if you return it in the front or rear.
It certainly doesn't matter if it exits front or rear or center or anywhere else as long as the restrictor is on the hose leading to the tank.
We agree, as long as pressure readings are always taken AFTER the last piece needing fuel from the circuit.

I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would??:razz: .
You got me!!! :lol:
If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,
I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!! :shock:
If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.
Believe me, I understand "partial blockage". You said, "With the single feed line PLUGGED or partially blocked..." I was questioning the PLUGGRD part.
My error indeed (as your mis-spelling plugged:p :p ), I meant partially plugged or partially blocked.
I knew what you meant, but, I needed something to pick at!!! :lol:

you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!! :smt100
My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.:shock:
Mine says the same about me, so it's a draw there!!! 8-[ :shock: :lol:
Hehe, indeed!
I don't think that THEY'RE laughing!!!

Less items to check or have go wrong.
In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,
That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.
The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL
$hit, pocket lint for you!!! :grin:
$hit if I had your money, I'd burn mine.:shock:
Now THAT'S funny!!! I'll trade paychecks any day!!! :-$

gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.
I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:mad:
That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!! :lol:
I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
I hope you do this sooner than later.
I'll do it before first ride BUT at the lake. I do like cooler rather than hotter.
As Newman said when Elaine decided that she DID want the neighbors dog "taken care of", "EXCELLENT.... EXCELLENT!!!"

I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!
So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....
More fuel, less timing?
I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??
More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???
I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).
Again, I must run. crazy, you are a great volleyer (sp), it's been a pleasure!!=D>
Always a pleasure on this end as well!!.

[beerdart]

Flow VS Pressure drop.

Why flow is important?
The answer is simple. If you do not know the flow requirements for your system, one or more compo-nents selected for the system may not allow sufficient flow to meet the operational requirements. When designing a system, even a simple series of components, one must take the flow rate into consideration when making component selection.
In the past, many laboratory specialty gas applications revolved around the gas chromatograph, which has very low flow requirements that are easily satisfied by any of the components generally used with such equipment. Although a large segment of the specialty gas business still revolves around the gas chromatograph, new applications, such as lasers, demand that a serious look be taken at the flow requirements to ensure that the system can deliver the required volume of gas. If even one component is undersized, the end-user customer will experience operating problems when the system is placed in service. Later in this article, some examples given will clearly demonstrate various conditions.
Selection Criteria
Many factors go into the proper selection of any component used in a fluid system. Chemical compatibility, design, pressure rating, pressure drop, and, of course, flow are the most common factors considered for many specialty gas applications. For flow control valves, shut-off valves, check valves, filters, and purifiers, pressure drop is a key criterion.
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvfactor1.gif For pressure regulators, pressure drop is commonly called “droop” and is seen when the set pressure of a regulator declines as the flow rate increases. This effect is shown in most regulator manufacturers’ literature in the regulation curves provided. A measure of a component’s potential pressure drop is the Cv (flow coefficient) factor. The Cv value, by definition, is the flow rate a component will allow, in gallons of water per minute at 60F, with a pressure drop of one psi. The equivalent for gases is defined as the flow of air at standard conditions in standard cubic feet per minute for each psig of inlet pressure. Because the Cv factor is a dimensionless number, the resultant Cv factor will be the same for a compo-nent whether the test is done with water or air. Flow rate and velocity are closely related to pressure drop. Increasing the flow rate or velocity to compensate for a low Cv value increases the pressure drop and usually seriously affects performance.
The Cv factor is a very useful tool in selecting the components necessary to achieve the desired performance of any system. Proper use of the Cv factor not only allows one to determine the right component to suit the desired flow characteristics, but also permits a comparison to be made among components with regard to relative flow capacity. It is important to note that the larger the Cv factor, the higher the flow capacity of a component under identical conditions.
Using the Cv factor to size a component
In many applications, all of the parameters are known. The required flow rate is defined and the inlet and outlet pressures are set by the process. The problem is to find the components that will handle the requirement. By using the formulas following, the Cv factor required can be calculated for the defined parameters. The next step is to make the desired equipment selection from those components that have been designed with the required Cv factor, and which meet other system criteria, such as materials of construction and inlet and outlet size and type. The required Cv factor can be calculated with one of the following formulas after calculating the Critical Pressure Drop Ratio (CPDR) to determine which formula to use.
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform1.gif
Use formula (2) when the Critical Pressure Drop Ratio is >1.89. This indicates that the conditions have reached the theoretical limit of flow rate for the component; this is called “choked or critical flow.”
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform2.gif
Use formula (3) when the Critical Pressure Drop Ratio is <1.89. This indicates that the conditions are in the range defined as “normal or subcritical flow.”
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform3.gif
Assume that you need to choose a pressure regulator to control the pressure of helium to a system in which the following conditions apply:


Fluid: helium
Inlet pressure: 2600 psig to 400 psig
Outlet pressure: 100 psig
Flow rate: 30 SCFH
Temperature: 60F
In evaluating this application, we need to calculate the Cv factor at 400 psig inlet because this is the condition that will require the larger Cv value. Because the CPDR = 4.0, we will use formula (2) for critical flow.
First we must convert the parameters to the units required by the formula.


30 SCFH ÷ 60 = 0.5 SCFM
400 psig + 14.7 = 414.7 psia
The specific gravity Sg for helium = 0.138
70F + 459.67 = 529.67R
Then http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform4.gif Most specialty gas regulators have a Cv of 0.06 to 0.08 and would be suitable for this application provided that its other attributes were suitable for the application.
Now consider whether the same regulator can be used for a similar application where the flow rate is 20 SCFM.
The Cv factor calculates to ~ 0.03 indicating that a regulator with a 0.06 or 0.08 Cv can be used. In reality it cannot be used. Remember, by definition of the Cv factor expresses a component’s flow capacity for the full open condition. It is not good practice to operate a pressure regulator in the very open position because this results in poor regulation and severe droop. Generally, we look for a pressure regulator that has a Cv factor 3 to 4 times the value calculated, in this case, 0.1 or 0.12. This ensures that we are in a desired position on the regulation curve.
Now consider a laser cutting application with these parameters:
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform5.gif
Because the inlet pressure is less than two times the outlet pressure, formula (3) is used for subcritical flow.
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform6.gif
The regulator selected for this application should have a Cv of at least 0.5, but a Cv of 0.6 or 0.7 would be preferable.
Determining the flow capacity of a component
Many suppliers’ of valves, pressure regulators, filters, and other flow components provide the Cv factor for each of their products so the flow capacity can be calculated or flow capacities of two or more components compared to aid in the selection of the right component. By rearranging formulas (2) and (3), we calculate the maximum flow rate possible for a component to ensure that it is suitable for our operation using formulas (4) and (5).
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform7.gif
What is the maximum flow of argon (Sg = 1.379) through a valve with a Cv factor equal to 0.56 when the inlet pressure is 50 psig and the outlet pressure is 0 psig? As-sume ambient temperature of 70F.
The CPDR = 64.7 / 14.7 = 4.4, indicating that we must use formula (4) for choked flow.
http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/cvform8.gif
Other Considerations
Although the Cv factor provides a very helpful guide to determining the flow of various system components, consideration must be given to other factors, such as:


Can the gas source provide the flow required? This is a limiting factor in many cases, particularly with liquid dewars or cylinders that contain gases such as carbon dioxide or ammonia.
When sizing components for flow applications, the line size may be a consideration, especially if the pressures are low.
If there are several components in a system, they must be considered in turn to ensure that the combination does not create a pressure drop large enough to negate the desired operation. Summary
Numerous examples can be illustrated, but the afore- mentioned calculations demonstrate the procedure for determining the Cv value required for a gas control component and for calculating the flow capacity of a flow control component using the Cv factor to determine its maximum flow capacity. The calculations are not difficult, but they can be time-consuming. Experience has shown that it takes only one component in a system to create a problem that would cause that system to malfunction. The problem can be in any component of a system, from the first to the last. More than once, a problem has been diagnosed and a determination made that the gas source container or valve was not capable of delivering the full flow required. Some faulty systems may have been assembled without consideration of each component’s Cv factor and the pressure drop from one component may have caused the system not to function properly. Flow is as important a parameter in any system as pressure. Without flow, a gas will not be transferred from its cylinder to the customer’s operation. Yet, flow often does not even enter as a consider-ation until there is a problem. Take the time to do the job right the first time. It is a lot cheaper than doing it over! http://www.specgasreport.com/archive/images/dingred.gif

Special Offer
You can avoid having to perform the calculations described here. The author will send a disc that contains a file with these formulas to anyone requesting it. The software used to perform the various Cv calculations discussed herein is Microsoft Excel. Request a copy by writing to Frank Scornavacca, SGD Inc., P.O. Box 347, Emerson, NJ 07630, or sending an e-mail to

[CrazyA]

Oh my God Beer, that must have taken forever to type!!! :lol: :smt024 :smt064 :smt033

[Hydrotoys]

I'm just waiting for the next color from the rainbow brigade! :)

[CrazyA]

Awesome Mark, Awesome!!! =D> :lol:

[JOE96XP]

reminds me of this email I got one time:

[ph2ocraft]

.

Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

Al,
Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!! :lol:
LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
No such thing... if it's supplying exactly what it needs to, how would anything more be safer?
Well............not exactly, the carbs are taking what they need and returning the rest to the tank. So if I can have more at hand IF needed, it's there.
An example; Let's say I have side mounted 48's and take a long hard left bender and the diaghrams aren't able to operate at full potential due to the G's, it's nice to have that "extra" fuel sitting in the high entry blocks, right??
Don't ask me for another example, that was the best I had.:razz:
Which is exactly why I've always advocated mutiple supply lines, both now, and many times in the past on the phone with you!!!
And why you didn't have to twist my arm to install them............to much!! And let's face it, how AWESOME is the install??!!


In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
How do you know this??? :lol: :wink: If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.
I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
I'll agree to that, IF, you agree then that it makes no difference where the return fitting is located on the SL 750 rail. 6lbs. is 6lbs, doesn't matter if you return it in the front or rear.
It certainly doesn't matter if it exits front or rear or center or anywhere else as long as the restrictor is on the hose leading to the tank.
We agree, as long as pressure readings are always taken AFTER the last piece needing fuel from the circuit.
Exactly

I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would??:razz: .
You got me!!! :lol:
LOL I knew I would if I tried long enough. It's only taken, what............. a year??:D

If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,
I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!! :shock:
If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.
Believe me, I understand "partial blockage". You said, "With the single feed line PLUGGED or partially blocked..." I was questioning the PLUGGRD part.
My error indeed (as your mis-spelling plugged:razz: :razz: ), I meant partially plugged or partially blocked.
I knew what you meant, but, I needed something to pick at!!! :lol:
=D>

you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!! :smt100
My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.:shock:
Mine says the same about me, so it's a draw there!!! 8-[ :shock: :lol:
Hehe, indeed!
I don't think that THEY'RE laughing!!!
LOL Well at least if they check notes, they'll think that's the way it's supposed to be.#-o

Less items to check or have go wrong.
In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,
That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.
The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL
$hit, pocket lint for you!!! :grin:
$hit if I had your money, I'd burn mine.:shock:
Now THAT'S funny!!! I'll trade paychecks any day!!! :-$
I don't know, you might not like the one penny a year pay check.

gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
So I went with the 3 pick-ups.
I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.:mad:
That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!! :lol:
I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
I hope you do this sooner than later.
I'll do it before first ride BUT at the lake. I do like cooler rather than hotter.
As Newman said when Elaine decided that she DID want the neighbors dog "taken care of", "EXCELLENT.... EXCELLENT!!!"

I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!
So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....
More fuel, less timing?
I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??
UHHHhhhh....................Keihins RULE!?!?! LOL

More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???
I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).
Again, I must run. crazy, you are a great volleyer (sp), it's been a pleasure!!=D>
Always a pleasure on this end as well!!
Tell everybody on the East Coast I said Happy Turkey Day!!!

[beerdart]

Right back at ya. We are at the lake house in VT.

[CrazyA]

We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with too much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine.#-o #-o

Al,
It dawned on me, didn't you have some 1050cc domes cut for this Matrix Stage 2 to try and get some of the midrange "hit" back due to your shimming and/or porting of the cylinders? What's your cranking compression and actual compression ratio on this thing? 50/50 mix may not be enough for this motor Bro!!! Maybe this has been slowly happening all along. ??? Aren't the bowls in the 1050 domes the size of a silver dollar now? lol...

Anyhow, just thinking out loud.

[ph2ocraft]

Well, I'm back and she's running pretty damned good.
I broke her in like she was a fresh whore and she seemed to enjoy that method as opposed to the slow methodical route.
She pulls the 04 pretty good from start to finish, so I know I'm in the ball park, next weekend I'll start turning in the srews a little bit.
Right now I'm at 7600 RPM 160 pounds of compression, more next week.

[ph2ocraft]

Al,
It dawned on me, didn't you have some 1050cc domes cut for this Matrix Stage 2 to try and get some of the midrange "hit" back due to your shimming and/or porting of the cylinders? What's your cranking compression and actual compression ratio on this thing? 50/50 mix may not be enough for this motor Bro!!! Maybe this has been slowly happening all along. ??? Aren't the bowls in the 1050 domes the size of a silver dollar now? lol...

Anyhow, just thinking out loud.

I was originally complaining to Baxter I didn't like the soft low end and how hard the transition was when she came on the pipe. The heads were worked but I never knew what he did to them nor what they were from.
I can tell you at 160 PSI it's again soft down low and the transition will take your arms out of their sockets.

[CrazyA]

Has that Stage 2 been ported, or does it just have the cylinders shimmed up?

Also, by my calculations, 7600rpm puts you at 11* advance... nice and safe up top, as always.

[800AMSOIL4U]

The stage II has been ported.

[ph2ocraft]

It has Bush porting but I really would like some more down low, I think the compression is going to have to come back up before I'm happy but we'll see.
Kevin how did you know it was ported? LOL

[800AMSOIL4U]

It has Bush porting but I really would like some more down low, I think the compression is going to have to come back up before I'm happy but we'll see.
Kevin how did you know it was ported? LOL
Don't know. I have never seen it before in my life. :^o Good guess.