The Stock Valve springs and why you should not use them

[NitroShark]

I been recently asked to repost my info on valve springs and what i know.

The F12x F12 and R12x R12 all use the same outer Valve spring, This spring is known to weaken under boost and with a modified Ski you are just asking for problems. Some people have reported that by using the non-turbo dual springs that the problem is solved.

So I ran a test 3 years ago and found out different, In fact the extra spring only adds about 5 lbs of pressure to make a total of 50 psi.

The problem is you still have the weak outer spring to deal with, so I scraped the idea and had my own kit made to fix the issue.

The Nitro spring kit come with 90lb springs (installed height VS 50lbs stock) titanium retainers, and a harden shim pack.

Shawn


The Valve Tester I use:

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12017-2/Vavletester.jpg



The Stock Honda parts bought new for testing:

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12013-1/f12VavleStockpart.jpg

Nitro Springs Left, Stock Duals Right

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12009-1/F12xNitroVavlesandStk.jpg


optional Nitro buckets for extra light weight.

http://garrigans.com/topfuel/valvebuckets.jpg


Tested Both spring kits at 1.285-1.292 installed height:

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12007-1/F12xvavleHeight.jpg


Nitro Kit 90 lbs

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12020-1/F12VaveTester90lbs.jpg




Stock Kit only 50 even with the extra dual spring

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12018-1/F12VaveTester50lbs.jpg



If your going to run extra boost you need to address the spring issue or your valves may look like this.

http://screamingsheep.com/gallery2/d/12011-1/F12xbentvavle.jpg



Remember, ALL Honda turbos come with only one spring, And this is the one below. :(

http://garrigans.com/topfuel/valvespring.jpg

[J-ME]

Seeing is believing.

Thanks for the post.=D>

[Rodneyae]

Nice!!!!!!!

[Hondastage1]

Thanks Nitro for the info. Its good stuff like this that gives us hope for the future. By the way what is the max rpms that these springs will be good for!!

Randy

[NitroShark]

Good for 12K,
Much more than a PWC needs, but if you use a aftermarket camshaft they will handle .100 or more lift.



sg

[Hondastage1]

Will anything else need modified to use the larger cams? Have you tested the performance increase? Thanks for the tidbits!!

Randy

[larry arizona]

Nitro,

What is open height and open pressure of the stock spring plus stock spring diameter. I am going to research a beehive style spring from PSI or PAC.

[spatera]

Its good stuff like this that gives us hope for the future.


I just rebuilt my motor and the thought of a broken spring scared me into getting Shawn's springs. It would be a bitch to go through that whole process again. Not to mention the valve could break off, take out my fresh cylinder and piston and probably beat the crap out of the bottom of my head.

[NitroShark]

1.285 installed but I use a different base circle, because of my custom cams. It's been so long that i have messed with a stock head I would have to go measure one or dig out my old notes of 4 years.

My valves are longer also.



Shawn

[seadoor]

really cool shank=D>

[antman]

Is this an issue for the nonturbo F12 as well? or mostly seen on the turbos?

[NitroShark]

I have no data on Non-Turbo applications. I can say if you upgrade it will only help and not hurt.

Shawn

[imaginate]

Do you know if they fixed this issue on the 15x?

[Chevysolid]

You said that this is an issue with increased boost... how much of an increase in boost would this become an issue, and on the flip side has there been problems on stock non-modified ski's with the springs....

I hope to switch springs at the 200 hr. valve check service... possibly

[NitroShark]

You will gain HP with anything above 14PSI and if you have a stock ski the springs weaken quickly. I would just change them and forget it.

There has be a number of documented cases of failures, even with stock skis.

Shawn

[mrjetskey]

PLease forgive me not trying to hijack your thread! What was honda thinking, They have tons of turbo experiance with there F-1 engines and with all the motorcycle engine exp. they have.When the honda watercraft first came out I thought wow awsome now we got another good ski to choose from,Lord am I so glad I didnt go that route.The dealer here on this texas lake had almost 50% come back with massive engine failure,first 2 yrs.I avoided working on them as My experiance was limited to all brands of two strokes.Specializing in sea-doo ,yamaha,kawasaki,polaris.I was wondering does honda finally have it right with new models are do they need spring replacement also ,even with stock boost???THanks in advance>Marvin

[JRINJAX]

PLease forgive me not trying to hijack your thread! What was honda thinking, They have tons of turbo experiance with there F-1 engines and with all the motorcycle engine exp. they have.When the honda watercraft first came out I thought wow awsome now we got another good ski to choose from,Lord am I so glad I didnt go that route.The dealer here on this texas lake had almost 50% come back with massive engine failure,first 2 yrs.I avoided working on them as My experiance was limited to all brands of two strokes.Specializing in sea-doo ,yamaha,kawasaki,polaris.I was wondering does honda finally have it right with new models are do they need spring replacement also ,even with stock boost???THanks in advance>Marvin
Wow, 50% seems a lot higher than what we have seen. We have had about a dozen [including mine] swallow valves on the '02-'03s but few of the later models. My replacement engine still has the stock springs and has over 500 hours on it.
I have read of a lot of Seedoos with their valve stems rusting and snapping off, so valves can be a issue with more than just Honda.
JR

[NitroShark]

Do you know if they fixed this issue on the 15x?

I think not from my testing, extra boost would require new springs.

Shawn

[Speed_Freak_039A]

How hard is it to install your new springs? Does the head have to come off or is there a tool available like SeaDoo has for the RXP to do it from the top side?

Whats the price on these puppies?

[tt f15x]

I saw the seadoo tool and bought a mac tools sping removal kit and modified it. works great

[NitroShark]

i have only used a Honda tool to replaced springs so i can not recommend any other.

Shawn

[XRIDER]

One of the racers ran the F15X with Mac's ecu at full throttle, 7800 rpm for a full endurance race with no problem.





Do you know if they fixed this issue on the 15x?

[RickWhite]

It will not keep that up for long, really need a heavy duty spring here, especially with those kind of rpms.....they probably still use the same wimpy spring

[XRIDER]

superJim f15x 100 hours still no problem.


It will not keep that up for long, really need a heavy duty spring here, especially with those kind of rpms.....they probably still use the same wimpy spring

[NitroShark]

Posting the data from 2 individuals means little especially with the limited hours.

Keep in mind by upgrading springs you not only gain reliability under increased boost you also gain horsepower by enabling the valve to follow the camshaft profile without float.

Shawn

[XRIDER]

are there any member here upgraded your valve springs, please share your speed result. Thanks

[m. cole]

are there any member here upgraded your valve springs, please share your speed result. Thanks

Brokeazz had the dual Honda springs and had them cyro frozen. He told me that he wished he had gotten Nitro's springs instead that they were stronger. I know this isn't what you were asking but thought you might like to know.

[git_sum]

how much are you selling these spring kits for? And just outta curiosity whats the stock valve spring pocket diameter on the honda heads?

[BLKJETT]

What would the cost of having someone install them be. I might be looking ot upgrade over the winter.

[onefastmo]

What's the $$ on the valve spring kit for F-15x

[NitroShark]

Due to the monthly changing price of Titanium you will have to email me for current cost.

Shawn

[klze]

You will gain HP with anything above 14PSI and if you have a stock ski the springs weaken quickly. I would just change them and forget it.

There has be a number of documented cases of failures, even with stock skis.

Shawn


I'm one good example!

[J3ff]

Me too! Floated a valve keeper.

[JRINJAX]

Me three, due to the springs it ate the valves at 135 hours...

[MRRCGUY]

Me three, due to the springs it ate the valves at 135 hours...

Is your ski stock? If not what do you have done?

[JRINJAX]

It was almost stock, I had modified the intake grate and installed a Solas aftermarket impeller.

[superjetpilot]

It was almost stock, I had modified the intake grate and installed a Solas aftermarket impeller.

Was this a problem with the 02/03?

[JRINJAX]

Yes, it was an '02 but the spring problem can strike on any year up to an '09.

[superjetpilot]

Yes, it was an '02 but the spring problem can strike on any year up to an '09.

Oh really?? Man I was think maybe it was on early ones? Is it less common on 04 and up even though it happens on all years by chance?

[JRINJAX]

I see crashed heads on ebay, even the later years. If you are turning any serious RPM and jumping waves it would be woth it to upgrade the springs.

[superjetpilot]

I see crashed heads on ebay, even the later years. If you are turning any serious RPM and jumping waves it would be woth it to upgrade the springs.

You mean RPMS higher then 6400 or so or more? I was thinking of getting an IC and maybe running 19psi down the road. Right now just stock and sometimes the MAC module.

[JRINJAX]

The valve springs are a wildcard, my '02 engine crashed a valve, box-stock and cruising at 4500 RPM on the Suwannee with only 135 hours on it.