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  1. #1

    Smile NEED HELP WITH genesis

    I just rebuilt a virage engine using the genesis stator,flywheel and carbs,the genesis had a destroyed rear #3 cylinder ,broken around the flange.NOw with rebuilt engine, clean rebuilt carbs,it is detonating the spark plug tip #3,melting it back ,no compression damage as compression is fine,it was not ridden hard and plugs were changed at 1hr after rebuild they were ok,then at 3 hrs and the ground electrode was melted back,which is pre ignition, is it possible for the cdi unit to cause this or did I just get a bum crank that is out of phase I bought rebuilt welded crank from SBT,I have used 8 or 9 of them without problems,I believe this happened to original engine,as same #3 was bad ,should I replace cdi first??timing is ok on other two cylinders thanks>Marvin


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Check the mechanical Crank Index.

    Have you put a timing light on it to confirm that base CDI timing is within spec?

    Did you also install the Genesis CDI into the Virage, or just the Genesis flywheel and stator with the Virage TX CDI?

    What model years are the Virage and Genesis engines that the parts came from, and are installed on?

    What are the part numbers of the CDI, stator and flywheel that are now installed?

    It is possible, I suppose, for the CDI, stator or flywheel to be incorrect with timing for just one cylinder.

    Polaris made two different domestic flywheels, with different base timing. The 4010569 'High Start' flywheels have ten degrees more base timing than the 'regular' 4010189 flywheels.

    It sounds like you may have mixed a regular CDI with a High Start flywheel. The result of doing so would be timing that was ten degrees more advanced than it should be, across the entire RPM range.

    Are the other cylinders showing any signs of excess heat or overly advanced timing?

    Do not use the 4010569 "High Start' flywheel without using a CDI programmed to match

    Polaris Domestic (red) engine

  3. #3

    Smile

    NO only the virage short block,(1200 crank,cases,cylinders,heads were swapped.I used genesis flywheel,stator,cdi etc.nothing was changed except block.all electrics,THe genesis is 1999 and had all original flywheel,cdi,coil,stator etc. no no other cylinders showing pre-ignition,only #3 others look fine and it runs strong,plug is not white or running lean,it looks exactly like a pre ignition damaged spark plug on champion web site,also running 50 to 1 premix in it,as I said its exact same cylinder that was damaged before diff. shortblock was used,the only thing is the cases came from a DI virage(injected, but the crankshaft and cases were same as carbed ones) I cant figure what is causing only #3 to pre ignite ,it did it before causing damaged rear cylinder and was bought that way.So since it is exact same cylinder ,with a rebuilt crankshaft ,I rule out crank being out of index.THe real question I have is it possible for a cdi to cause only one cylinder to pre-ignite???I have never seen that before,I am careful not to mix parts without ref.#s and updates ,as this guy has a total of 8 polaris 3 sltx 97 models,1 sltxB,the genesis,a virage TXI and 3 other parts skis.Thanks for any help,I just cant figure what could cause only 1 cylinder to pre-ignite unless its bad crank,but I know its not the crankshaft??thanks>Marvin any other sensor or trigger missing or bent on flywheel or stator?????

  4. #4
    casey67's Avatar
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    With the cylinder broken at the mounting flange,I would suspect hydro-lock.

    I beleive The timing trigger is on the crank hub part of the flywheel ( only 1 trigger for all 3 cyl)

    I would suspect crank timing,was your crankshaft rebuilt or replaced, or fuel delevery on #3 before ignition.

  5. #5
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    The spark timing for each cylinder is controlled by;
    Flywheel timing ring magnets
    Hall Effect sensors in the stator
    CDI
    Crank shaft index

    Since the crank shaft has been replaced, you should check the crank index just to be sure it is not the problem. Not hard to check. Sometimes there is more than one problem happening at the same time.

    You are re-using the original 1999 CDI+flywheel+stator. Any one of them could be the cause of incorrect spark timing on one cylinder.

    My guess is that the CDI is the most likely culprit, and the stator is next. You could swap in another CDI (from the customer's SLTX-B, perhaps), and see if the problem goes away.

    Have you tried running the engine on one cylinder at a time? If it runs stronger on #3, that may confirm the timing is too far advanced on that cylinder.

  6. #6

    Smile

    Yes that is next step,I checked flywheel for loose magnets like the bad ones in some 1050s where the set screws come loose and magnets move seperate from,flywheel if you catch it quick ,before it destroys stator.He bought x45 from a guy up north it had rebuilt engine and rebuilt crank.He brought it to me to look over,upon opening compartment I found starter reduction gear spring in btm of ski.so pulled engine,to install it, found out all 3 cylinders had been bored and SBT pistons used ,with no chamfering on ports,two pistons rings saved ,one being bored as we speak.The genesis he bought for 250.00 as parts ski,which was great until he grenaded his virage TXI ,bad crankshaft main bearings rusted then seized,so instead of rebuilding it for the injected ski (he doesnt trust theEMMS as we had to send it to DFI.)and no way for me to adjust or mapp injectors ,he decided to stay all carbed since I built him 2 sltx 1050 with wiseco pistons ,jetted carbs ,and he rides 100+ mile salt water trips even in this time of year.hes a 50 yr old health nut who stays in good shape.BUt changing subject I think cdi is the right way to go.the break in the fly wheel magnets triggers the ignition sensor?correct? I just usually see cdi either good or bad,I did have a pr0 1200 that came in with #1 cylinder not sparking under load and #2 not sparking on tester and one ok.Replaced cdi runs great!!So that made me believe that some cdis are either weak or get damaged by owners charging battery or shorting poles ,you never know when you have a well used ski with no history!!thanks guys for all your help.sorry for changing subject.Good guess for water ingestion but very wrong it was seized by heat not lack of oil or from water as it was still held in place by two bolts and exhaust manifold,GO figure ,some people dont know when to stop,if ski is running bad stop it and find out why!!! thanks again guys!>Marvin

  7. #7
    SPEED KILLS, BUT YOU GET THERE QUICKER Keddano's Avatar
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    What type of RPM's were getting out of it? Check to make sure the wires are on the right plugs, maybe they have been replaced and positioned wrong,the ski will still run pretty decent,but will be firing at wrong time.

    Where is our Randy Video?

    Basiclly,pull all the plugs and wires except one,and start the ski on the one,it should start and run on one cylinder out of the water, then try the next the same,and then the other. If you have one that won't run,swap it to another cyl. and try.
    Also if the stator has been upgraded without someone knowing it and is still running the old cdi,it will do funny things also.

  8. #8
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjetskey View Post
    ...I checked flywheel for loose magnets like the bad ones in some 1050s where the set screws come loose and magnets move separate from flywheel if you catch it quick, before it destroys stator.

    ...I think cdi is the right way to go.
    the break in the fly wheel magnets triggers the ignition sensor? correct?

    ...some CDIs are either weak or get damaged by owners charging battery or shorting poles...
    Loose magnets on 1050 flywheels
    That is news to me, but I haven't heard much about 1050s around here.

    The Polaris domestic (red) engine CDI ignition system (actually manufactured for Polaris by PVL Probosch-Vogt-Loos GmbH) uses three Hall Effect sensor chips in the stator to sense the passing of a magnet in the timing ring attached to the flywheel.

    As the rotating magnet comes very close to the Hall Effect sensor, the sensor changes from a very high electrical resistance to a very low electrical resistance. The CDI is triggered by the quick change in electrical resistance, but does not immediately fire the spark.

    One of the diagnostics for the domestic ignition system actually shows you the Hall Effect sensors changing resistance as the flywheel is hand rotated. You can even attach a degree wheel, and measure what crank angle each sensor is triggering at. They should be 120 degrees apart, if the sensors are working properly.

    When the Hall Effect sensor is triggered (there is a separate sensor around the stator inner ring for each cylinder), the CDI sees the sensor trigger signal, but delays the actual voltage pulse to the ignition coil until a programmed time delay has elapsed.

    The amount of the time delay is calculated from the ignition advance curve programmed into the CDI, and the current RPM the engine is turning.

    The actual time delay is just a few milliseconds, but there is always a delay between the time the Hall Effect sensor triggers, and the time the spark is fired. At maximum spark advance (in degrees), the delay is least.

    If the CDI has become defective, it may no longer be correctly delaying the spark to match the timing curve. The spark could even be firing without any delay, which would result in extremely advanced timing, which would be especially destructive at high RPM. I suppose this could affect only one cylinder, or all of them, depending on how the CDI was failing internally.

    4010569 High Start flywheels
    What Polaris found was that some engines could take advantage of more spark advance than was possible using the 'regular' flywheel. The CDI itself has a minimum internal delay time, so ignition timing could never be advanced beyond (or even very close to) the moment when the Hall Effect sensor was triggered.

    That lead to the 2002-2004 4010569 'High Start' flywheels, which trigger the Hall Effect sensors 10 degrees earlier than the regular 4010189 flywheels. The matching CDI were then programmed with a corresponding 10 degrees more delay in the base timing curves.

    This in turn allowed for up to 10 degrees more maximum CDI spark advance on those engines that needed it, and apparently this extra timing flexibility was especially useful on some custom tuned and race engines.

    You can use the High Start flywheel on any domestic engine, but you must make sure the CDI is programmed to work with the extra base timing. This can be done by installing the matching Polaris CDI part number, or having Randy re-program any Gen III domestic CDI with the appropriately compensated timing curve.

    Conversely, if you replace a High Start flywheel with a regular flywheel, you must match the CDI to the now retarded base timing, otherwise the entire engine will run with 10 degrees less timing than it should have, and it will not produce the expected power.

    Quote Originally Posted by kedanno
    Where is our Randy Video?

  9. #9

    Smile

    The flywheel on some 97 sltx 1050s are held in place by set screws ,it fits snug inside of flywheel so if sets come loose the magnet just rotates a little in the flywheel if its left like that for long ,it will eventually get loose enough to vibrate and break or catch stator.I have a bad sltx 1050 one I swapped out with newer model 99 that has the problem corrected by different magnet attachment to flywheel,I dont have one of those to take pic of.But will post the one to look out for>Marvin in am sometime thanks guys for all your help,I guess its possible someone swapped a coil wire but wouldnt 2 cylinders be way off and down on power.?it runs very healthyI will check each coil wire when I get it here ,hes bringing it when I finish his sltxb this week.Funny I put an hr on it easy ,changed out spark plugs, wife rode it hr or so, I put new plugs in it then he rode it after taking it home for 2hrs it bobled then he pulled plugs comp good all cylinders, but rear plug was preignited I'll attach pic he sent
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  10. #10
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    The spark plug in those pictures looks all black and sooty.
    Not what I was expecting to see

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