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  1. #1

    Smile Help with GENESIS

    I started a new thread as my last one got all mixed up ,this is what I have ,the 1200 which was rebuilt by me had the #3 cylinder totally destroyed,breaking off at flanges.I rebuilt it using a welded SBT crankshaft ,new oversize wiseco pistons &rings,all new crank seals ,gaskets etc.IT burned the number 3 spark plug back 1/4" on ground electrode,it is not running lean,I have indexed crankshaft as instructed in previous thread by tx pro1200 and K447
    (get two colors of paint.for the mag cyl mark the tdc position one color and the 25 btdc another.approximate the gap between the marks,rotate engine around to the cen cyl tdc.mark flywheel then guess for 25 btdc and mark,repeat for the pto cylinder.check timing for each cylinder this way.if you notice something out of wack on the pto cylinder timing then proceed this way.the red,blu,green triggers off the stator wires where they connect to the cdi,swap the cen and pto ones and swap the plug wires as well then check the timing again.if the discrepency follows the switch to the cen cylinder then its an ignition problem.if the problem stays with the pto cylinder its a crank problem,if everything checks okay this way the cdi may not be retarding the timing on the pto cylinder above 2500 rpm)
    OK crankshaft looks good,I checked it running on each cylinder,it idles fine on #1 and #2 when they are only spark plug connected,on number #3 it will start but you have to give it throttle to run and it runs rough,also when running it out of water on trailer it starts fine but has a split second lag to throttle,just off idle then smooths out.I believe the only problem I have now is the cdi ,I have checked all connections,and if it was trigger in flywheel all 3 would be off/correct,SO I am looking for a good used 1200 cdi any of you gents have one for sale?Thanks for all your help,I will swithch out cdi and let you guys know how it turned out,thanks for all your help and understanding,and patience,you guys have really helped me with the 1200 and 1050 polaris engines,and since I am one of the few in this area that will work on them it has been a GODSEND that you gents have taken the time to help me.I have been building PWC for 20+ yrs motorcycles and hot rods before that,yet I still make mistakes and learn a little more every day!THanks Again>Marvin >Marvin


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    It may be the CDI, but I suspect it could be the PTO Hall Effect Sensor in the stator.

    When you swap the trigger and coil wires around, you are using different 'channels' through the CDI to fire the PTO cylinder, but the timing trigger for the PTO cylinder always comes from the PTO Hall Effect sensor.

    When you swapped the trigger and plug wires, did it still have trouble running on just the PTO cylinder?

    Do you have another compatible stator on hand to try?

    Also, double check that the Black stator wire really does have a zero ohm connection to the block, with the battery negative disconnected.
    In fact, double check all the stator ohm values, and also confirm there are no partial shorts to ground from the Hall Effect sensor wires.

  3. #3

    Smile

    I only have a sltx 1050 stator spare,I think I'll order one to have as I have 7 customers with 1200s and I'll use it sooner or later,The hall effect is only a piece of metal with current moving thru it affected by magnetic impulse,They are pretty failsafe I will check a different channel on that cylinder one more time.THe engine came in with the rear #3 cylinder broken off at the mounting ears,the number #2 at the exhaust bolts,so it was a mess.I replaced crankshaft,cases,and cylinders ,I am sure now the original failure came from the problem it has now.and it really does run strong even like it is (strong for a genesis) I had a 2001 come in with weak cdi ,it would run fine on trailer but not under load ,the number1 cylinder would start firing intermitently,however not to hijack my own thread ,I believe the cdis are very sensitive to battery voltage and improper charging techniques,and people fry them by jumping off a dead battery.if it runs good on another channel then that could still mean its hall effect sensor or the cdi unit correct???or would that indicate its the stator?(hall effect)also I have one other question is there any difference other than slight ignition mapping between the different # of cdis for the 1200 such as 4010567
    4010379
    4010543
    are they all interchangeable?I know I updated a few of the SLTX 1050 to the newer numbers and had no problems at all,so I am hoping the 1200 cdis are equally interchangeable having only different maps or timing curves.Thanks again guys>Marvin

  4. #4
    casey67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjetskey View Post
    OK crankshaft looks good,I checked it running on each cylinder,it idles fine on #1 and #2 when they are only spark plug connected,

    on number #3 it will start but you have to give it throttle to run and it runs rough,


    also when running it out of water on trailer it starts fine but has a split second lag to throttle,just off idle then smooths out.
    Try giving a shot of "carb cleaner" ,will it smooth out ? idle on it's own ?

  5. #5
    Rasta Mon Condoms We Be Jammin!!!!! TxVirageTx's Avatar
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    leak

    were the cases pressure tested after reassembly????something as violent as snapping the jug flanges off might have cracked the cases

  6. #6
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjetskey View Post
    ...The hall effect is only a piece of metal with current moving thru it affected by magnetic impulse, They are pretty fail-safe
    Actually, Hall Effect sensors are tiny semiconductor chips, not metal.
    That is why they need the 8-9 volt DC power feed from the CDI.

    I will check a different channel on that cylinder one more time.

    ...if it runs good on another channel [through the CDI] then that could still mean its the hall effect sensor...
    or would that indicate its the stator? (Hall Effect)

    ...is there any difference other than slight ignition mapping between the different # of CDIs for the 1200 such as
    4010567
    4010379
    4010543

    are they all interchangeable?
    ...I am hoping the 1200 CDIs are equally interchangeable having only different maps or timing curves...
    If you swap Hall Effect sensor inputs to the CDI, and swap spark plug coil wires to match, such that the PTO cylinder is firing through a different channel inside the CDI (and through a different ignition coil), and the PTO cylinder still runs poorly, then the PTO Hall Effect sensor in the Stator is suspect.

    You can do a separate test swapping the primary and secondary coil wires around, to prove the PTO ignition coil and PTO plug wire are not causing a problem.

    I think all the domestic 1165cc CDI are similar (but not exactly the same) in terms of timing and curves, except for the 'High-Start' versions of the 1200 CDI, which have ten degrees LESS base timing, to compensate for the High-Start flywheels that have ten degrees more base timing.

    From Polaris Domestic (red) engine;

    There are several versions of the domestic engine flywheel.
    Do not use the 4010569 'High Start' flywheel without using a CDI programmed to match

  7. #7

    Smile

    Heres where I stand now ,first let me answer the cases and crankshaft are not from the engine that broke the flange off of the cylinder.They are from a virage and I installed rebuilt crankshaft,new crank seals,I am very clean with rebuild ,and use either 518 or aircraft metal to metal flange/case sealer,I used the aircraft on this one,There is no problem with fuel ,or with carbs or cases leaking.I put 4 to 5 psi on every case I build its not much but will quickly find a leak.THat said ,I have swap channels on the stator and swapped center and mag plug wires,it runs weak on center cylinder when doing that ,and barely ran on rear.SO I suspect the stator is damaged causing cdi damage also,because after performing these tests and reversing the gren/blk with blu/black putting it back to normal it started and ran ok twice then all of a sudden without touching anything,it has no fire and will only crank or turn over after sitting 30 seconds and there is no fire on any plugs now,alsothe only way you can get it to turn over without the wait is remove the lanyard.I'm thinking that it had a problem before and it wasnt corrected properly,the cdi unit in it has P/N 4010379 on the tag yet in white marker it has 4010377 written on it.I'm thinking previous owner had it worked on and the shop changed the cdi thinking they fixed problem,however with the timing being off on rear cylinder the flanges broke and it was sold in that condition,but the original problem was never solved,it does flash unlocked on display ,yet there is no fire now.it did follow problem to center cylinder when I ran rear plug wire and coil on middle channel,hence the stator and cdi are bad,no loose connections tried all of them,,its not coil pack I had spare and swapped it to be sure,so any other ideas except change stator and cdi box???Thanks in advance for all your help ,it has really helped me out!!!>Marvin

  8. #8
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjetskey View Post
    ...then all of a sudden without touching anything, it has no fire and will only crank or turn over after sitting 30 seconds and there is no fire on any plugs now,

    also the only way you can get it to turn over without the wait is remove the lanyard.

    ...the cdi unit in it has P/N 4010379 on the tag yet in white marker it has 4010377 written on it.

    ...it does flash unlocked on display, yet there is no fire now.

    it did follow problem to center cylinder when I ran rear plug wire and coil on middle channel, hence the stator and CDI are bad...
    Terminology check;
    Crank - Starter motor cranks the engine
    Turn over - Starter motor cranks engine

    Both have the same meaning - correct?

    When you remove the lanyard, it allows you to crank and start the engine (or at least have spark), but if you don't wait 30 seconds or don't remove the lanyard, the engine doesn't have spark, or doesn't crank at all?

    Wait 30 seconds after what?

    Does the behavior change if you hold the bilge button down when you crank?
    I am wondering if the LR module is failing, and not properly controlling the Orange wire power feed to the CDI.
    Does the Red/Purple wire for the CDI connect to Orange, or to the other Red/Purple wires?

  9. #9

    Smile

    my terminology leaves a lot to be desired ,I actually am not as stupid as I sound,I was trying to state that hall effect were pretty reliable,and I meant different channel in stator even though I wrote cdi ,I changed the wires going from cdi to coil,and moved spark plug wires accordingly,it had 2 problems both in cdi and hall effect sensor because there was no improvement changing channels and also the #3 coil wire on #2 cylinder also ran weak,indicating hall effect problem, and cdi problem, I changed out coil with known good unit and same exact problem>,I think way ahead of what I type as I chicken peck due to loss of 3 fingers on left hand.when I said wait 30 seconds without touching start button, and it cranks over but no fire!ok crank means turn over,it will crank but no spark period now,if you put lanyard on it will crank without spark if you let off of start button, then wait 30 seconds it will crank over without fire if you let off dont wait push again it wont turn over ,I looked at all connections ,they are tight,(i snug each one to be sure)they are all in correct place (3 times I checked for crossed wires or bad ground)if you remove lanyard it cranks over each time you touch the start button now,but without spark,in other words I lost all fire to plugs now,,I do know that while it was working I swapped gren/black with blue/black on the coil and swapped spark plug leads 2 things the problem followed the #3 plug wire to the #2 cylinder when run that way it ran weak like #3 originally,also the #2 spark plug wire when installed on #3 cylinder also ran weak like it did before I crossed the channels,I then changed wires back to normal position ,it started and ran for a few seconds I shut it off then went to start it again ,and no spark anywhere now and start button on a 15 to 30 second delay with lanyard attached ,no fire while cranking, and it cranks with lanyard off with no fire every time you touch button, like the opposite of what it should do.(I use crank and turn over as same ,i use start for turn over and start,Thanks for the help,please excuse my horrible sense of grammar and in ability to get the point across,hopefully this last post clears it up,>Marvin

  10. #10
    Rasta Mon Condoms We Be Jammin!!!!! TxVirageTx's Avatar
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    not cranking

    there is a bulletin about cranking with the lantard out.the cdi thinks its still running and won't crank with the lanyard in.the red/purple wire coming out of the cdi needs to be moved to a orange terminal on the connection board,also wonder if the ignition coil itself has a internal breakdown letting it fire the pto cyl prematurely

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