Thread: Ultra Pulley Match Up
02-01-2010, 12:05 AM #1
Ultra Pulley Match Up
Pulley Match Up.
Posted in Pulley Kit Pull-Off on May 11th, 2009 by Skip
Can someone come out with an idea of their own on size of pulley with a kit to match it other then R&D? Lets take a look.
Ive been doing Pulley kits ever since we flew out to R&D test site in late 2007. By the invitation of them, we were able to learn of the complete kit and all the parts they use to make the only engine kit out there in its time. Development took R&D a complete year to perfect the kit as they see fit and pull together many resources to achieve the goal they set. The list of what was available was long and a bit confusing. As what was explained to me, was so that the tuners had option of buying pieces or the kit as a whole. Welcoming for us who want to customize a kit but leaves a door open to be copied by persons who feed themselves from the work of others.
Lets start with the R&D, founder of this pulley kit concept. Ill just link it here.
As you can see they thought of every little part and piece. Almost over engineering it, but to me that’s what so great about it. You can reverse engineer it simply and understanding its every step to final production. Still you have to admit, it was the foundation that so many duplicated whether they admit it or not.
JetWorx in AUS.
Next kit I know of is the one from Australia labeled under Jetworx presented in early 2008. Motivated by US exchange rate and shipping cost, they worked on their own kit based on the same concept and copy of the R&D 1-1 wheel. Difference here is that they thought out to make complete kit that looks stock, surly a motivating factor could have been the lax technical inspections at local races making the potential buying group to include Racers and Recreational .
Interesting enough of its use and design motivation, the kit yields a good insight to the thought put into it. Very simple yet clever in design. You get a copy of the R&D 1-1, HP fuel pump, Modified stock injectors and finally a modified stock timing wheel. Now from experience at installing this kit I can tell you that the kit, though clever has some issues. Issues that even I could overcome easily. So Ive reverse engineered it and come up with some very interesting information.
Injector Testing Result #1 JetWorx, #2 OEM 2008, #3 OEM 2009, #4 Mits OEM, #5 Pinky’s STi, #6 R-Rated Black.
The stock injectors are rated at 465cc and the modified ones in the kit are 535cc. The stock fuel pump is a LP “low pressure ” and the one in the kit is a HP “high pressure” both delivering the same psi but one is able to maintain this set psi during heavy load operation. In the kit they ask that you install the injectors and the fuel pump they provide with removing the stock pressure regulator. I suggest you dont do this, as it only runs the PSI higher and with 535cc injectors it tends to flood out idle and low RPM operations. An AFR of 9.5 and at WOT for me was 10.5 and well below prime numbers. Having no adjustable fuel regulator makes this impossible to tune on. Though the final install looks completely stock. What the work of Jetworx showed us is that the 535 Injector alone will work well with the 1-1 pulley wheel design. No addition fuel pressure is needed so we left the stock regulator in dropping the Fuel PSI back to 43lbs. We did install the HP fuel pump in order to ensure we were able to sustain 43psi under heavy demand. Though Jetworx copied the pulley they did focus alot on sneaky fuel supply and exposing what is really needed to provide a simple kit. 1-1 Pulley, HP fuel pump and 535cc injectors. Timing mod is a simple add on and cheap to do. Dont attempt it on a Ultra 260X.
Rogue Racing late 2009
The other copy out of the R&D 1-1 pulley size is the Rogue Racing Med Pulley. I define copy as in the diameter of the pulley belt section.
Problem for me is that they offer no instructions for installation nor any tuning or fuel support with this pulley. They only cut a wheel, box it and claim to have completely tested information. Odd as the pulley doesn’t even come with proper bolts or hardware as all the others do.
The Rogue pulley has taken the R&D pulley to another level in effort to improve the original design but there are some simple issues that even the manufacture has seemed to over look.
Id like to explain all about the Rogue Racing kit but they don’t have one. We’ve had to use the R&D set up or R-Rated set up to make the pulley work safely. They don’t advertise one and surly don’t have instructions on one. Seems they may be waiting for someone to do it for them.
So as we know it now, all 1-1 pulleys add only 1.5 lbs not 2.5lbs of boost to the base output to ones stock charger. Older chargers will produce less boost gains.
Another design situation that is being ignored is the clearance with stock Pulley snout on this Rogue pulley. Example, if you install just the pulley as provided by Rogue you run two major issues of potential failures. Failures that the manufacture seems to not know of or have they provided us with proper hardware to prevent such an issue.
Lets help Rogue figure it out.
Focusing first on the back side of all three pulleys discussed here.
R&D seems to have made tolerances for potential clearance issues.
R&D with OEM Charger Snout.
Now the R&D on the new 2010 OEM Charger. Notice the profile with clearance in mind.
Next lets look at the Jetworx pulley. Seems identical for placement of this very important profile in relation to the bearing.
Notice even the stock has a profile that allows for such tolerance.
Now lets look at the Rogue Pulley… One must ask why they failed to recognize the importance of this profile?
Why would this be an issue?
Doesn’t seem to matter just from looking at it and surly what the machine shop was thinking too. This pulley design in the back runs to much of a risk for us to use as what we are to believe is the recommended method of installation. Im to assume because it comes with no instructions or supporting hardware. I have taken the time to document the issues I have with this rear pulley profile.
Here is the Rogue Pulley on a stock OEM Charger Snout. Notice the contact with bolt heads to inside rim of the Rogue Pulley.
Another installed on the new 2010 OEM Charger
Here you go Rogue, this is the answer. Read carfully.
Notice the head profile on the bolts I purchased verses the OEM set of five above it. This drops the head profile by 3mm. Use M6 x 16 low profile Stainless bolts. Tighten bolts using blu-lock-tite to 104in/lbs. Also use these bolts when using the R&D Charger Snout with the Rogue pulleys to aviod clearance issues on back side of pulley. Notice in Pic below how the R&D supplied bolts also runs too close to the Rogue pulley rear profile.
Lets also talk about front Dampener Bolts. Rogue, this is the hardware for your pulley.
Pink screws are what come out of the stock stainless pulley. Not much thread bite but stainless threading is much much stronger then Aluminum threading. The ones in Blue are the ones that come with a R&D pulley. Seems they realize that it best to have a longer screw with their pulleys. The ones in Green are the M6 x 14 we had to purchase.
Odd this was over looked as they both have the same tensioner thread depth.????
As the Rogue pulleys are shipped, there is no hardware and one has to rely on the stock bolts.
Be aware that you could be risking charger and pulley damage if you do not take the time and extra expense to purchase the correct hardware.
Third issue I’m looking into is with one of our “small” 1.05-1 pulleys from Rogue. It seems there is cracking in the web between the threaded tensioner hole and the milled out ventilation hole. Still looking into this and its potential cause.
In closing about this pulley. I must say the belt guard and ventilation of the pulley is helpful design. Bearing issues seem to be minimized at this point . The short comings mentioned are adaptable and I often use this pulley on race applications.
Stand alone Kit
Let me show you how to support your pulley in the stripped down basic way. Your going to still need to purchase several R&D parts to do this correctly. Do it right the first time. Trust me Ive tried the short cuts and they always come back to haunt me.
Lets start with the Rogue Pulley. I’m going to use this one, do to its racer inspired design, trust me it wasn’t Rogue alone. I’ll be adding the stainless hardware as described above.
Items Ill be using. In this lay out.
Rogue Med Pulley at 1.5lbs boost increase
Rogue tensioner Not needed though, you can save $100 and ditch this one with no ill effect.
Walbro HP GSS341/342 Universal Kit
R&D Charger Wheel Hub / Alignment Tool
R&D Dampner Holder Tool
R&D Pressure Reg Bypass Fitting
R&D Pulley Puller Tool
R&D Fuel Rail Stand Offs / Modified
Fuel Pressure Gauge.
550 CC Top loading Injectors “Cheaper” But Stock Injectors could work.
Summit Catalog = AN parts. 6 Bulk Head with Nut, 2x 6 AN 90 Barbed, 6 Straight to 1/8 npt, 90 elbow 6to6, 6 swivel fem to fem and 3 ft 6Hose.
AFR Guage with O2 kit complete for testing your AFR/LA.
You would be better to read the R&D post I made in order to obtain the information of installing pump, injectors, reg block off and bulk head fitting. HERE
Lets touch on the injectors a bit. I say this due to the fact that the stock can be used but your going to need to pump the fuel pressure beyond the stock specs that the fuel line and fittings are rated at. There has yet to be a failure that I know of but it still doesn’t settle well considering the main fuel line pushes on with a plastic clip holding it in place. Ill opt to go with a bigger injector and scale down the fuel PSI giving me plenty of safe operating range to tune within.
This is the first time ever that Ive shown this set up and do so assuming it will be barrowed. It was first brought to me by a friend over a R-Rated as alternative location with less hardware back in early 2008. It does though put the Regulator on the motor and subject it to harsh vibration. As of yet I have not found any ill effect from it. This location does allow for tuning to be done with rear seat base still attached.
So you understand location of all fuel components, lets just cover a few small details on the pulley and were off to tuning.
Pulley install is straight forward and for this a shop manual isn’t going to help much.
Carefully remove the stock pulley dampener. This is a crucial part and needs to be reinstalled. Pictured here with the bolts.
Use the holder when removing and installing Dampener bolts. Blu-Loc-Tite and 104in lbs.
Remember to not reuse the stock bolts with this pulley set. Purchase your M614 and M616 hardware for proper install.
When fitting the pulley and alignment I ensure my ring clip is always seated properly. I do so with a flat head screw driver. I use the pulley and the rind to wedge away from each other ensuring the ring is seated.
Tuning is super simple once you have your AFR hooked up and functioning. Location is simple and is where everyone puts it as its a dry hole thru to the inside of pipe.
You can see the hole drilled for the o2 sensor on down section of pipe.
Tuning. The Ultra stock mapping is a rich mixture at idle. Usually a 10 to 10.5 but leans out in the mid range or cruising speed to around 12.5 to 13 and drops down to about 11.5 at WOT.
This is the range you want to return to or match when tuning. If you are race tuning then you want your bottom to be a bit leaner for a harder hit but run the risk of a too lean mid range and top. This can be range tuned individually using the R&D Powershot.
If your use to using Lambda then here is a helpful chart for you to convert off of. Here!
Mechanical tuning is simple and truly the 101 of tuning. Just remember that fuel pressure up means your going richer and you AFR numbers drop, vise when your fuel pressure goes down then your leaning up and AFR rises.
Cant get any simpler then that.
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