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  1. #1
    Phil's Avatar
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    Is there an ECU reflash for the 260X?

    With the advent RXT-X IS hull and the FZRs posting such good numbers, we need a little something extra to stay in the game. I think I noticed Skip mentioning a possible ECU reflash, but he never gave us any details or time frames. I hope Skip jumps in hear and saves the day?


  2. #2
    The reflashing is mostly be marketed thru R&D here in the USA.

    I have not gone very far into this matter myself since heavy advertising from R&D. I figured the could handle it.

    I have been approached with option to reflash and Ive failed to take it at the moment.

    I will however be doing one for recreational use.
    Ive built my files based off a Motec file Ive been working on that will support a 1-1 pulley. I have talked with Motec USA in regards to this vary matter and its seems that we agree, there is a huge gap in ECU pricing that could be filled with a reflash for those interested in performance without dropping $4K. Though understands its at a limitation.

    Here is the problem for me though. Relflash is basic Timing and Fuel maps only. No data logging or O2 inputs. The file given up for reflash has to be absolutely perfect for ever condition nation wide. I'm working around this but still the stock ECU is limited in its ability to adjust especially with additional boost. To do it right one has to know without a doubt all the limiters and senor equations. Not easy to map out just yet.

    Here is another issue with tunning Fuel Maps. http://greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116236
    Thats a thread where I was asking for some help from the Yamaha guys. I'm thinking if I could build a fuel mapped based off the Yamaha 50-51 psi fuel pressure then the stock injectors could operate within duty cycle without overheating.
    Sure I could use a regulator and all but I wanted to offer a ECU, Pulley and internal pressure pop-off. Make things easy especially since the pink injectors are so damn hard to find new at the moment.

    More on this but things are moving slow for me as Ive picked up too many projects at one time, remember I'm still working the cam issue out. That and racing is now starting and Ive just finished my Vortech bracket kit for the Ultra so I'm way far behind. Calling on my boys from Italy and Australia to help divide the work load.

    Then again someone else could help too.

  3. #3
    JET250's Avatar
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    get us the mitsui software and we will make you a map.

  4. #4
    I have been wanting to reply to this for several days, but I have had little time and wanted to take some time with the reply.

    I have inquired about reflashing and I have the opportunity right now to accept if I choose. I am waiting on further questions to get answered before I commit and I am in the middle of starting a business featuring engine tuning and dyno services so money has been tight. I just do not want to spend the capital to get the tools and software for reflashing skis right now. My main focus will be cars with pwc as a side business. Also, I am not convinced it has the same value to dollar ratio the yammi guys get. Basic timing and fuel can be manipulated manually and has proven to provide good results. I understand there are drawbacks to adjusting this way and I do realize there are places to improve the curve in individual load cells, but it comes with a price and for the average rec rider throw a timing wheel in and you are good. $13 versus $750 for the reflash.

    The kawi ecu on the 250/260 is either a curse or a blessing depending on your view. Over the last few years I have learned what I thought was speed density control is actually a hybrid speed density/alpha-n control. I have my own ideas on what will make a good tune for a 250/260 and how to approach it. Fortunately, if I decide to offer this in the future I will not be guessing on the tune and will have the means to test results immediately and accurately document the change. I do agree there are many limitations, but at the same time the simplicity is what makes it easy.


    For anybody interested download motecís software and the basic 250/260 ecu file. Thankfully Motec offers this for free on their site. This file will give you a lot of insight on what is going on inside the ecu, what are good starting fuel and ignition values, and where some of the limitations/alarms have been set. Motec provides a lot of good information on their site. Luckily, this information makes it easy to see how the ski is tuned without owning a motec. It really is worth visiting and reading some of the material.


    Does Kawasaki have a flash tune for different parts of the country?

    I looked at your screen shot of the i2 data in the other thread Skip. What is your ijpu set at and what do you have in the fuel table cell closes to the rpm and map pressure? Also, what fuel is in the tank? Are you reading lambda and converting to an afr inside of motec? Is your map compensation standard motec table? Another thing is I could not get the injector sizes numbers to match up based on the pressures given?


    Quote Originally Posted by Skips313 View Post

    To do it right one has to know without a doubt all the limiters and senor equations.
    Before I disagree with you I would like clarification. This may be a terminology issue and how I am understanding the terms. IMO all of the limits will remain unchanged and there should be no need to change limits. The sensors do no do equations the ecu calculates a value and compares it to a value to determine if the measured value has exceeded a limit. I do not understand why I need to know how this is done other than I should have the ability to change it. Remember this is not a standalone where you are trying to mimic a stock ecu behavior.

    I havnt given much thought into it, but on a reflash, change fuel and timing and you should be done. Just make sure the fuel system is capable of supplying the required fuel and the timing is not to aggressive. If the ecu fuel table and ignition table is 100% writable then the ecu limit will be based on what scalers are editable. Also, what value does the ecu switch from map control to dual control to TP only. If it switches to tp only and ignores map then at first thought I do not see any limitation other than keep a linear powercurve or I should say a powercurve where tp and hp are proportional. Turbos by design will not work well with a alpha-n system. I know if I ever finish my turbo project it will be ran by motec.

  5. #5
    Subtlesoldier
    WWSD



    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Posts: 48


    I have been wanting to reply to this for several days, but I have had little time and wanted to take some time with the reply.

    I have inquired about reflashing and I have the opportunity right now to accept if I choose. I am waiting on further questions to get answered before I commit and I am in the middle of starting a business featuring engine tuning and dyno services so money has been tight. I just do not want to spend the capital to get the tools and software for reflashing skis right now. My main focus will be cars with pwc as a side business. Also, I am not convinced it has the same value to dollar ratio the yammi guys get. Basic timing and fuel can be manipulated manually and has proven to provide good results. I understand there are drawbacks to adjusting this way and I do realize there are places to improve the curve in individual load cells, but it comes with a price and for the average rec rider throw a timing wheel in and you are good. $13 versus $750 for the reflash.

    The kawi ecu on the 250/260 is either a curse or a blessing depending on your view. Over the last few years I have learned what I thought was speed density control is actually a hybrid speed density/alpha-n control. I have my own ideas on what will make a good tune for a 250/260 and how to approach it. Fortunately, if I decide to offer this in the future I will not be guessing on the tune and will have the means to test results immediately and accurately document the change. I do agree there are many limitations, but at the same time the simplicity is what makes it easy.


    For anybody interested download motec’s software and the basic 250/260 ecu file. Thankfully Motec offers this for free on their site. This file will give you a lot of insight on what is going on inside the ecu, what are good starting fuel and ignition values, and where some of the limitations/alarms have been set. Motec provides a lot of good information on their site. Luckily, this information makes it easy to see how the ski is tuned without owning a motec. It really is worth visiting and reading some of the material.


    Does Kawasaki have a flash tune for different parts of the country?

    I looked at your screen shot of the i2 data in the other thread Skip. What is your ijpu set at and what do you have in the fuel table cell closes to the rpm and map pressure? Also, what fuel is in the tank? Are you reading lambda and converting to an afr inside of motec? Is your map compensation standard motec table? Another thing is I could not get the injector sizes numbers to match up based on the pressures given?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Skips313

    To do it right one has to know without a doubt all the limiters and senor equations.


    Before I disagree with you I would like clarification. This may be a terminology issue and how I am understanding the terms. IMO all of the limits will remain unchanged and there should be no need to change limits. The sensors do no do equations the ecu calculates a value and compares it to a value to determine if the measured value has exceeded a limit. I do not understand why I need to know how this is done other than I should have the ability to change it. Remember this is not a standalone where you are trying to mimic a stock ecu behavior.

    I havnt given much thought into it, but on a reflash, change fuel and timing and you should be done. Just make sure the fuel system is capable of supplying the required fuel and the timing is not to aggressive. If the ecu fuel table and ignition table is 100% writable then the ecu limit will be based on what scalers are editable. Also, what value does the ecu switch from map control to dual control to TP only. If it switches to tp only and ignores map then at first thought I do not see any limitation other than keep a linear powercurve or I should say a powercurve where tp and hp are proportional. Turbos by design will not work well with a alpha-n system. I know if I ever finish my turbo project it will be ran by motec.
    __________________
    aka-RealPSI
    aka-JWilson
    aka-Spaulding
    .

  6. #6
    Sorry for the horrible spelling & double post.

    Ill explain I have not seen the re flash software and the explanation to me was Timing and Fuel maps could be accessed and that was it. Ive asked alot question and getting few answers, other then I needed to either send several stock ECU's or buy the re flash equipment for 10K, didn't settle well at all.

    Ill respectfully respond in red to your questions directed at me.

    Before I disagree with you I would like clarification. This may be a terminology issue and how I am understanding the terms. IMO all of the limits will remain unchanged and there should be no need to change limits. The sensors do no do equations the ecu calculates a value and compares it to a value to determine if the measured value has exceeded a limit. Have you seen this first hand inside the Mitu ECU? If this is truly fact then maybe alot of my unanswered question can be answered in this alone. I do not understand why I need to know how this is done other than I should have the ability to change it. Remember this is not a standalone where you are trying to mimic a stock ecu behavior.

    I havnt given much thought into it, but on a reflash, change fuel and timing and you should be done. Just make sure the fuel system is capable of supplying the required fuel and the timing is not to aggressive. If the ecu fuel table and ignition table is 100% writable then the ecu limit will be based on what scalers are editable. Does this include Temp sensors. OR do we just buy the R&D resistor for all the temp sensors? Ive seen first hand the exhaust temps rise putting the 1-1 pulley kit on stock ECU into limp mode. Also, what value does the ecu switch from map control to dual control to TP only. Again to me an unanswered question that no one has stepped up to answer. Do you have that answer. I don't hold the software to find such answers. If it switches to tp only and ignores map then at first thought I do not see any limitation other than keep a linear powercurve or I should say a powercurve where tp and hp are proportional. Are you sure of this, sure enough to flash a timing map and fuel map into a ECU to support up to 18psi of boost? If so Ill provide a safe map. Turbos by design will not work well with a alpha-n system. I know if I ever finish my turbo project it will be ran by motec. Your going to enjoy the AntiLag option.

    So to clarify my stand on this. I'm not up to date on the relation from Stock ECU to Motec ECU to just start dropping my Motec files with custom limiters, into a Stock ECU. Apparently neither has R&D as they haven't done it to date yet they posses the Stock ECU flashing equipment. Sure you can look at a stock Motec file and learn alot, Ill bet youll learn alot more when you actual use it on the water with modifications. Took me a bit to understand soft and hard cuts in relation to this motor. Ive biult a digital safty net that I feel is important to have with reflashing. How do I ensure its in there with a refalsh.

    Now if I had the software to explore myself then I could compare between the two and possibly pump out re flashes that would support the Pistons and 1-1 pulley with just ECU.
    Then again we run into the injector issue. Since a re flash doesn't have logging then one would need to turn back to a MoteC or similar data collecting abilities to develop safe maps without running on stock limiters or over taxing stock injectors.

    I'm also unsure if the re flash can take value away, I'm told its much like the Axis and just adds value to existing base maps. IF this is true then for me it gets a bit more complicated to just throw a Motec map into the stock ECU.




    I feel a ripping come from this..........

    Your a vary smart guy, get your craft finished and get a Motec, get on the water cause no data is better data then what comes from on water testing. This bench racing wont win no races, especially in watercraft. Of coarse you could prove this all wrong with a good old fashon Hydro Drag when you finish your biuld..

  7. #7
    No ripping coming,

    I have not seen the software the only person i know of who has is or was banned from here.

    My thoughts are based on how every reflash I have ever seen works. Maybe I will explain that first and then you can decide what you think

    Reflash is done by copying out the stock file. It is either a single bank multi bank or sectioned. This file will have memory locations or addresses in it. Somebody comes along and decodes the file and writes a definition file for the addresses and defines tables and such.

    Next somebody writes software that puts the file into a nice gui or text format where it can be manipulated and saved. This is the file that gets copied or put back into the ecu. The only thing that changes in the strategy is the part you manipulated. If it is only fuel and timing then that is all that has been defined or all that has been removed from the ecu. In the infant stages usually the important tables and scalers are identified and as the software matures more of the ecu is opened up.

    So my assumption is this reflash would work the same way. As long as none of the limiters or setpoints have been changed it will be identical to stock. If the definition file has this information in it then you should be able to change it.

    Out of time for now.

  8. #8
    The reflash should change nothing in the stock ecu other than what was touched. All your cuts and alarms should remain unchanged. Hopefully the reflash does allow a rewrite of these values.
    If I can change the switch point or scaler for when TP becomes primary over MAP, change injector scaling, rewrite the base fuel and base ignition table I would feel comfortable dumping any combination you wanted in the ecu.
    Anti lag will be nice no doubt a running ski would be nice. The reason why the turbos lag so much and the centris suck so bad with a stock ecu has more to do with the alpha-n control. If this could be changed to strictly map then a lot would open up for combinations.
    Like you I have a hard time getting concrete answers on the things I ask. You have to be able to change the stock scalers. If I knew I had control over the flash and it was my personal written flash or tune I would be more inclined to buy or get in on reflashing, but I cannot get that answered to my satisfaction.
    I think water testing is the best way to go no doubt, but having a dyno available to test a setting or tune on before the water sure will make it easier. Right now though it is strictly wheeled vehicles. Like you I have too many projects going to try and dyno a ski.

  9. #9
    I looked at your screen shot of the i2 data in the other thread Skip. What is your ijpu set at and what do you have in the fuel table cell closes to the rpm and map pressure? Also, what fuel is in the tank? Are you reading lambda and converting to an afr inside of motec? Is your map compensation standard motec table?


    Do you have this information available?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Subtlesoldier View Post
    I looked at your screen shot of the i2 data in the other thread Skip. What is your ijpu set at and what do you have in the fuel table cell closes to the rpm and map pressure? Also, what fuel is in the tank? Are you reading lambda and converting to an afr inside of motec? Is your map compensation standard motec table?


    Do you have this information available?
    I'm not going to make it so easy, Ive spent a ton of time developing this map. Just openly giving it out isn't something I'm OK with at the moment.

    I will say that my IJPU started at 20 but I'm afraid it might no longer be at that... That along with % your asking for gives my home work away.

    Giving you that gives away my work when matched with IJPU. Cant do that for you at this point maybe later though. You could buy a Motec and easily obtain that info yourself, your going to need one eventually. "Lambda Was" is the chit and you'll find its a huge short cut in tunning at the water. Your a smart guy and I know your fishing. Ill pass on biting on that one.

    Why does this matter when LA does not care what fuel your using, thus answering your next question of the converting LA to AFR. Motec always reads in LA, the i2 allows you to see it in AFR. So the AFR you see in i2 is the true LA.

    The compensation is "double pressure" "double fuel" pretty standard as I know it.

    The colors are a bit much but I thought it might be a better way to answer your questions. Maybe not as it looks a bit gay.

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