Thread: Polaris guru help wanted!
05-20-2010, 11:11 PM #1
- Join Date
- May 2010
Polaris guru help wanted!
I have a 99 polaris Genesis carborated which lost its spark. I traced the problem back to the cdi and replaced it with a new one but it still has no spark. My question is did I put the right cdi in for my electrics or does the problem lie somewhere else? I tested the stator and all the impendance values check out with the stats I found on this site except that the exciter coils all had around 106 ohms when apperently they should be under 25 ohms. I pulled the stator out and it looks clean along with the flywheel being shiney like new.
For starters could someone please tell me if the new cdi I put in matches?
Here are my part numbers...
Stator PN 4010170 09/99
Flywheel PN 4010189 08/99
Ignition coil PN 4010342
The old Cdi part number is 4010379 and has been re-marked on the back with paint with the number 498
The new Cdi part number is 4010885 and has been re marked on the back with paint with the number 543
Are these 2 cdi's compatable? They had exactly the same wiring and just pluged right up with no wires un-accounted for ect.
Advice from someone who can point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.
05-20-2010, 11:33 PM #2
The first thing I'd do is test the battery volatage.
With a volt meter check the voltage at the battery it must be at least 10.6 while cranking.
Fully charge the battery or use a jumper pack at the battery, see if you get spark.
05-20-2010, 11:39 PM #3
Ohhhh and WELCOME to the Green Hulk Forums.
Be sure to check all power and ground connections.
Here's some info from the tech section.
PVL IGNITIONS EXPLAINED
By Jason Lorenz(Jay)
The ignition system in your Domestic powered Polaris is manufactured by PVL and made in Germany. It is one of the best performance ignitions made for power sports applications; it’s a true digital ignition system. Polaris has always been a performance oriented company striving to lead the industry in all it has produced. That being said, they contacted PVL to make a system for their watercraft. The first system was used in the 1996 production line up, the Hurricane, SL/SLT 700, SL 900 and SLTX 1050. These first few years would be tough and needed some revised parts. There are a few ways to identify the PVL ignition system in your machine.
First is the CDI. This is the black box that is located in your electrical box. It tells the coils when to fire and how long to saturate the primary side of the ignition coil. It can be one of three boxes. The first being the red potted (color of epoxy where the wires exit the CDI) with a com port. This was found on very early boats and if you have one in your boat you should upgrade when you get the chance, it WILL fail. The second generation box is red potted with a com port next to where the wires exit the CDI. This is programmable and adjustable, better than the first generation but not the best. The third is the current black potted unit with a com port and is the best CDI ever produced by PVL for the Polaris watercraft. These rarely have any issues and are the toughest part of the ignition system. Over the years, I have had only 6 bad boxes which are black potted and most were something other than a non start spark problem (will not hold a steady timing degree, etc...).
Stators are the weakest link in the PVL system and fail often. The latest version is the strongest and the life expectancy is far greater than that of the early units. The earlier stators did some crazy things such as limit boats to 3-4000RPM’s, no spark, jump timing, drain batteries etc. Early stators are easily identified by the plug ends and the white insulation around the trigger coils. If you have one of these, better get a new one, it will fail you soon. Stators currently have four versions. There is a twin with an 8 pin plug and one with multi-connectors. Same with the triples, one with an 8 pin plug and one with multi-connectors. You can use either twin stator or either triple stator, the difference is that plug. Now here is the nice part. If you have a stator with a multi plug you can get yourself an adapter that allows you to use the 8 pin plug.
You plug the harness in at the electrical board and the connector stays outside the box. This leaves you with a nice, easy disconnect for engine removal and stator changes. Now you can only use this stator if you have upgraded your ignition system because the wiring is different. The nice thing is that you can just order a stator for a newer boat and not waste the money on the stuff you don't need. Below are the part numbers for the connectors.
When you use these connectors you must order this stator, 4010170 triple, 4010172 twins. Connectors come with the rubber packing in them for the electrical box.
Why does a stator go bad?
Well, over the years, this is what I have found. BVS-battery voltage spike (charging the battery while in the craft at too high amperage, not having the battery isolated (disconnected), jump starting the craft with a running vehicle, incorrectly used jumper pack, battery connection arcing from loose connections (grounds and post connections), pour grounding of stator (i.e. corrosion/early stator poor design), over revving engine (spinning a modded engine over 7600 rpm [they lose the ability to ground or properly dissipate heat]). A lot of heat increases resistance and makes for a poor ground. The heat comes from the stator creating the amperage needed to power the electrical system. The stator cannot dissipate the heat fast enough through the aluminum stator plate and flywheel housing (this is why the fuel injected models with the big stators need to run water through the front housing). The additional water through the stator cover cools off the aluminum so that the stator does not burn up. This mod can be performed easily and for little expense, depending on your model of course. With these being the common items of failure you will still get the “normal” failure as well.
Coils are tough units.
As in all applications, PWC, ATV, Motorcycles & Cars, these rarely fail. There are a few times when they do, but, it’s not usually the case. The triples do not get an updated coil when getting an ignition upgrade kit. I think I have seen maybe 5 bad coils with the Polaris PVL ignitions for the triples. There is a newer version of the coils-red podded being older and black podded the newer version with sockets for the high tension leads (spark plug wires). Both are very good units. The 700 twins get new coils/wires with their kit. The newer version has sockets for the high tension leads and has wings to lie in the electrical box.
OK, so know you are armed with the major components of this system. There are a few other items but we’ll cover them later!!!!!!
You have no spark!
Purchase a multi-meter (they are inexpensive, starting at about 30.00) and will help you with trouble shooting other items in the future.
Do you have a good battery?
It must be fully charged and have at least 10.6 VDC while cranking your unit (measured at battery). A bad or weak battery will drive even the best techs nuts. Charge and load check them when you have a no spark condition. Make sure the battery level is topped off. If the battery is weak, you will usually see a spark just as you let off the start button.
The battery plays a large role because it is a digital ignition and needs a strong battery to fire the coil, run the diodes, capacitors, and micro-processors in the CDI box and stator.
Once the battery passes the test.
Please get a service manual before going any further. You must check the stator and other ignition components for good continuity. Some of the reading that you are going to get from the stator might not be exactly as mentioned in the service manual.
Here are some of the tests that I have come up with. Keep in mind, this is just a guide and not a “how to” so you must understand all of the components in your system.
Not mentioned is the LR module which fits the later boats and operates the start/stop and bilge.
Check all your connections at battery and engine grounds through the box and check you terminal board in you electrical box and see if they are corroded. Also check the terminals on the board. Move them and see if any are loose. You also need to check the back of the board and make sure it is not all corroded or rusted , it should have dielectric grease on the back of the board. This helps the corrosion factor and keeps moisture out.
Checking the connections and wires; This can be done with a meter on the ohms scale and or the VDC (volts d.c.) to measure voltage drop. you should not have any more than 1 ohm and no more than .5 VDC drop on any given wire/circuit. Be sure to check ground at engine block and to electrical box as well.
While you are in the box disconnect the black/yellow wires at the terminal board (this is your shut off/kill circuit) and will take it out of the equation.
If you still have no spark, re-attach the wire back to the terminal board so that when the engine fires, you’ll be able to shut it down.
Disconnect the grey wire going to the CDI box (this is the limiter and sometime if you have a bad CDI will ground out and not cause any spark. You can leave this unplugged during the testing procedure.
OK now check for 12 volts on your red purple wire going to the CDI box. If you do not have 12 volts start back tracking on the wire to find where the wire has lost it’s 12 volt source. The wires off the circuit breaker are known for corroding.
Check for voltage drop across the circuit breaker as well as an ohms test. You are looking again for no more than .5 VDC drop and no more than 1.0 ohm of resistance. You should have battery voltage on the supply wire to the circuit breaker. If you have no power, trace and restore the 12 volt supply.
Now unplug the brown wire at the CDI box. This is your feed to the stator that will supply voltage to the trigger coils. With your meter on volts dc put the black to engine ground and red to the brown wire coming out of the CDI box. Make sure that you are on the right wire here (you want the one coming out of the CDI box). Crank the engine over and you should see 7-9 VDC. If you have the 7-9 volts then your CDI is supplying voltage to the stator and chances are the stator is bad.
If you have no voltage leaving the CDI, perform the following test;
With that same brown wire disconnected at the CDI box do the following. Find the wire going to the stator (again make sure you have the right wire). Get yourself a 9 volt battery and put the negative side of the 9 volt battery to engine ground and the positive to the brown wire going to the stator. Crank engine over and see if you have spark. If you have spark, you have just verified the CDI box is bad as it does not supply power to the stator.
If it doesn’t spark, you probably have a bad stator.
05-21-2010, 03:46 AM #4
- Join Date
- May 2010
thanks for that info but the stator is already out sitting on the bench and all the necessary tests have been done to it while it was still in the boat.
I really need comfirmation that the new cdi that I purchased will mesh with the existing stator by someone that is familiar with the part numbers.
Then I can feel confident that thats not the problem before I re-assemble the engine with the new stator, just in case it still wont spark.
Is there anyone that knows their part numbers back to front?
05-21-2010, 06:45 AM #5
if it is the ond stator and you bought the new style cdi they are not going to work with each other.. you need the stator that was upgraded with the cdi
did you check voltage?
05-21-2010, 08:25 AM #6
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- near Toronto, Canada
Sometimes Polaris would update the CDI after initial manufacturing. When this happens, they would mark by hand the new part number
In your case,
4010885 is actually 41010543
This is the stock Gen III CDI for the 2001 1200 engines, and should work fine with your Genesis stator.
There were no Ignition Update Kits for the 1200 engines, so don't worry about that.
The old CDI was
4010379 which was actually 4101498
The number one reason for no spark is a weak battery. Measure battery voltage while cranking. It must be over 10.6 volts while cranking, or you will not have spark.
How do I test old and new domestic red engine CDI, Magneto and Ignition coils?
Polaris Domestic (red) engine
05-21-2010, 08:34 AM #7
Let's see, it's a 99, the stators are known to fail, you already have it out, you state it measures out of spec. and you're questioning wether or not you should replace it?
If it were mine, I'd replace the stator (since it's out and most of the expense goes to labor) and then install the correct CDI.
4010171CONTROLLER,IGN,3CYL,PWC Substituted by 4010377
05-21-2010, 09:14 AM #8
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- near Toronto, Canada
The Ignition Update Kits (to replace unreliable original OEM 1996-1999 domestic ignitions) only applied to the smaller displacement motors (1050, 900, 700), not the 1200.
Is there an issue with the 1200 Gen III stators in 1999?
I was not aware of a problem with any year Gen III ignitions.
The 4010170 stator was used from 1999 through 2002 models.
4010170 STATOR ASM. 3CYL PWC GEN-3 PVL
05-21-2010, 09:23 AM #9
All I did was check the availability of the CDI with Polaris Industries, that's what they have listed. The stator shows it's available as an individual number as well.
05-24-2010, 04:22 AM #10
- Join Date
- May 2010
Thanks for that I did plan to replace the stator all along I just needed confirmation that the cdi that i purchased is the right one. I would rather use the new cdi aswell since I already have it and it in my mind eliminates that as being the problem. Perhaps once I get it running again I will swap the cdi back and if it still goes with the old one I can sell the new one on.
Man if it weren't for the info on this site I wouldnt have a shit show of ever geting it going again!
BTW I pulled the stator and flywheel off while the motor is still in the boat. The flywheel was tight as a mother and I nearly gave up and pulled the motor but decided to crank it up and leave it for awhile. When I got back I just gave it a tap and bang off it came! So thanks for the helpfull threads about what type of puller to use and how to set it up to pull square ect all good info!
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