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  1. #1

    MSD Total Loss Ignition on Polaris Domestic Engine

    Does anyone know if it is possible to trigger a MSD 42351 Total Loss ignition with the OEM Polaris 1200 flywheel and triggers? MSD 42351 TL uses a "Wand Style" pickup pulse, but I also have a MSD 4343 converter that will convert a "Hall Effect" pulse to a "Wand Style" pulse. I'm not sure what type of pulse the OEM Polaris Domestic flywheel/pickup is, but I do know that it appears to have one magnet mounted in plastic at the base of the flywheel and three pickups in the stator. Anyone ever try to use the oem Polaris flywheel to trigger a MSD 42351 or 42354 Total Loss ignition?

    Mutty

    P.S. The MSD 4550 Flywheel is discontinued and I've been unable to locate one


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    The Polaris red domestic carburetor engines use a Hall Effect Sensor.

    There are different versions of the domestic stator, the latest version being Gen III (also used for the 'Update Kit' ignitions). All 1200 engines came with the Gen III ignition system.

    The charging coil is the same for all stator versions (not that it matters for a total loss ignition). The ground for the Hall Effect sensors is isolated on the Gray wire in the Gen III stator. On the older stators, the ground for the Hall Effect sensors was common with the Black ground wire for the stator.

    Are you going to remove the magnets from the outer rim of the stock Polaris flywheel, and otherwise lighten the flywheel? If not, why bother with the total loss ignition?

  3. #3
    Thanks for your wealth of valuable information. My application is Snowmobile Drag Racing, not Watercraft. If indeed the Polaris Domestic stator has Hall Effect sensors, I'm hoping they are capable of triggering my MSD Digital Programmable Ignition through this MSD 4343 "Hall Effect to Wand Converter". Is the part number of the 1200 triple Gen III stator 4010170? Do the Domestic Watercraft twins also use Hall Effect Sensors (2 instead of 3)? Is there a Gen III twin cylinder stator also? The reason I ask is because I am developing my multi stage nitrous combination on my own Dyno which only has the capacity to control around 350 - 375 horsepower, so I have already cut down a 1200 triple base into a twin so I can dyno in 2 cylinder form (multiply results by 1.5 for triple output), so I can still develop the combination with the same exact components (reeds, carbs, cylinders, pipes, ignition, etc).

    I would buy a MSD 4550 Flywheel if I could locate one, they are discontinued, but there are several reasons I still want to run a MSD Total Loss system, with or without the flywheel. MSD's Digital Programmable Ignition as I'm sure you know allows you to plot the timing curve and retard rate in the targeted RPM range of preference, and in steps, up to 14,000 RPM's, which is desirable for Multi-Stage Nitrous drag racing.

    I will remove the magnet charging ring, and have read all the threads about lightning the OEM flywheel, but I haven't made a decision about lightning, Let's get spark first! Is the OEM starter capable of cranking over a high compression triple? I have already made several sets of heads, up to 14.5:1, but static compression (cranking pressure) shouldn't be all that high because my combination has well over 200 Degrees exhaust duration and no power valves, and the MSD has a starter retard feature also.

    Mutty

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutty View Post
    ...My application is Snowmobile Drag Racing, not Watercraft.

    If indeed the Polaris Domestic stator has Hall Effect sensors, I'm hoping they are capable of triggering my MSD Digital Programmable Ignition through this MSD 4343 "Hall Effect to Wand Converter".
    The Polaris domestic stator Hall Effect sensors are normally powered by an 8 volt DC power source inside the CDI module. You can power them with an external power source, just make sure it is regulated and fused. The current draw is minimal. In fact, during diagnostic testing a regular 9 volt battery is used to power the Hall Effect sensors in the stator.

    Is the part number of the 1200 triple Gen III stator 4010170?
    Yes

    Do the Domestic Watercraft twins also use Hall Effect Sensors (2 instead of 3)?
    Yes

    Is there a Gen III twin cylinder stator also?
    Yes

    The reason I ask is because I am developing my multi stage nitrous combination on my own Dyno which only has the capacity to control around 350 - 375 horsepower, so I have already cut down a 1200 triple base into a twin so I can dyno in 2 cylinder form (multiply results by 1.5 for triple output), so I can still develop the combination with the same exact components (reeds, carbs, cylinders, pipes, ignition, etc).
    Why cut down a triple when the domestic twin is the exact same engine with two cylinders?

    ...MSD's Digital Programmable Ignition as I'm sure you know allows you to plot the timing curve and retard rate in the targeted RPM range of preference, and in steps...

    ...Is the OEM starter capable of cranking over a high compression triple?
    Yes. The 1192cc Matrix 200 and high compression (220+HP) Matrix engines seem to work fine with the stock starter, as do many other high compression 2-stroke watercraft engines.

    I have already made several sets of heads, up to 14.5:1, but static compression (cranking pressure) shouldn't be all that high because my combination has well over 200 Degrees exhaust duration and no power valves, and the MSD has a starter retard feature also.

    Mutty
    Use a high capacity, high cranking Amps battery for the starter. Factory Sealed AGM works well, especially in the next battery size up from the 19Ah PWC standard.

    The Odyssey PC625 is well regarded, and I use the Deka ETX16LM with good results to date. An even larger larger capacity battery will provide more voltage during cranking, which translates into more cranking RPM and faster starting.

    Click here for the Polaris Industries parts cross reference guide

    Are you familiar with the high performance sled web sites?

  5. #5
    Wow, you really know your ignition components, thanks a bunch. I can't express enough how much I appreciate corrosponding with the right person.

    Unfortunately, I had to cut down a domestic triple case into a twin, because they are NOT the same. All the domestic triple cases have a huge reed, and none of the domestic twin cases do. I was concerned that it would slightly alter the combination using the oem domestic small reed twin case, especially with the 52mm Crankshop carbs that I generally use. I need to dyno small scale, but use as many of the same components as possible, including the ignition curve, to eliminate variables.

    I also have a spare Data Acquisition system, identical to what my dyno has, that I will be running onboard the drag sled that is far superior in my opinion to anything MSD, Racepack, etc have made. It will be able to monitor and record (200 times/sec) several key tuning variables that are detrimental to nitrous tuning like Nitrous Pressure, Fuel Pressure, and most importantly Fuel Flow in lbs/hr, all of which can be compared to Dyno data for in field tuning.

    I planned on using a remote automotive jumper pack to start the drag sled, since weight is as important as HP. Do you thing there is a maximum cranking amps that an OEM starter should be used with?

    I have the Polaris parts cross-reference chart saved on my favorites, have collected info from the crazy DIY 24 page thread on Snowest, HCS, Amsnow, Snowmobilefanatics, etc.

    Mutty

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutty View Post
    ... I planned on using a remote automotive jumper pack to start the drag sled, since weight is as important as HP.
    Do you think there is a maximum cranking amps that an OEM starter should be used with?...
    As long as the voltage delivered to the starting system is 12 volts, the available cranking Amps from the battery merely have to be 'sufficient'. All a higher capacity battery provides is less voltage droop during cranking. That means stronger cranking.

    If you want to save every pound, there are Lithium battery packs which can replace the traditional 12 volt lead-acid battery. Much less weight, but much higher cost

    Since you are dispensing with much of the stock electrical system, you may want to upgrade to an external start solenoid. The external solenoid used on later model Polaris PWC is now the same part used on current SeaDoo watercraft. All plastic, including the mounting base.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    OK I picked up a Gen 3 Polaris stator p.n. 4010172, have it mocked up with the correct flywheel, and want to test the Hall Effect Sensors. Should I supply voltage to the red wire and grouund the grey wire (both to a 9v battery) and what should I check for at the Yellow and Brown wire (channel 1 and 2)?

    Thanks,
    Mutty
    Last edited by mutty; 01-03-2011 at 10:34 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutty View Post
    OK I picked up a Gen 3 Polaris stator p.n. 4010172, have it mocked up with the correct flywheel, and want to test the Hall Effect Sensors.

    Should I supply voltage to the red wire and ground the grey wire (both to a 9v battery) and what should I check for at the Yellow and Brown wire (channel 1 and 2)?

    I mocked it all together yesterday along with my MSD 4343 "Hall Effect to Wand Converter", and my MSD 42354 Digital Programmable ignition module, but the red light in the box is not showing that I am getting any signal form the Polaris 4010172's Hall Effect Sensors. Help!

    Thanks,
    Mutty
    Not sure whether you are referring to the Polaris stator wire colors, but the 9 volt battery that powers the Polaris Hall Effect sensors is not powered by red and grey.

    Refer to this thread to see that the Hall Effect sensor is powered by the Brown (+) and Gray (-) wires (Polaris Gen III domestic stator).

    Gray is also the 'ground' reference for the three Hall Effect triggers. Each of the three colored wires (Blue, Red, Green) will provide a low resistance 'pulse' to ground when the trigger magnet passes the Hall Effect sensor.

    Note: Two cylinder Gen III stators only have Red and Green wire Hall Effect triggers.

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