Thread: RRFPR Question
10-01-2010, 01:48 PM #1
I think I already know the answer to this question.
Finally got my ecu back from Riva and went out to do some tuning on the PX. I have all the normal stuff plus just recently added Bosh 50's, Riva X charger upgrade (the one they dont offer anymore), Rude fuel controller and Riva Pro ECU. Got bottom and mid range afr dialed in but could not get wot afr rich enough. Wot afr's would stay around 14.0. I did not hold it there very long, just long enough to go 78.2 with a full tank. I kept adding fuel with the Rude, but could not get the afr's richer.
Do I need a rrfpr to get my afr's richer at WOT?
Last edited by troyheb; 10-05-2010 at 11:01 PM.
10-01-2010, 02:01 PM #2
Why bother with the fuel controller and Riva ECU ? You are right in that the best way to add fuel on top is to do the regulator.
10-01-2010, 02:09 PM #3
Bro you know the answer, the controller was a waste of money for u imo. Dont run it that lean.
10-01-2010, 02:12 PM #4
10-01-2010, 02:13 PM #5
10-05-2010, 09:23 PM #6
All right. Got a rrfpr coming, be here Friday. Been thinking and reading about rrfpr's.
My afr's were good at low and mid, but lean at wot. Should I set the rrfpr to the same as stock psi, and attach the reference line? In theory this would give me the extra fuel I was needing at wot.
10-05-2010, 09:28 PM #7
the controler wasnt a waist....i typed this up it is posted int eh rude how to section this should answer any questions..and yes with 50 you probabley cant et enough out of them without the rrfpr
this may help someone get a grasp on rrpr and the controlers
if you disconecct the referance line...on a rrfpr ...it is just a normal fuel pressure reg ...
a rising rate fuel pressure regulator pulls 5 psi of fuel pressure or so at idle or when the reg sees vaccume.. this helps lean out the low end and idle a bit ..that is why you set your base pressure just buy cycling the key ..not while the engine is running....
if you dont want to use the raising rate part of the reg you can still take advantage of this feature ..you can put a aquarium air pump check valve in the referance line and the regulator will only see vac ..not boost...it will then still pull a little fuel pressure at idle and it will help a little with idle af...
for every 1 lb of boost you put in a manifold that pressure pushes back at the injectors...effectively lowering/ canceling out.. the fuel pressure the injector sees..so realy the rrfpr just keeps the pressure at the injector the same. but still adds fuel over not using it ....
i am running a riva ecu and bosh 50...with a rude 3 ... i wasnt able to get enough fuel wot..without running the rrfpr..i had the base pressure at 65 still wasnt enough...high pressure atomizes the fuel awsome but also puts alot of load on the fuel pump ..before the rrpfrs came out you never heard of fuel pumps going bad...i have a set of 60# i may try..and see if i can tune it without the rrfpr
this is my opinion on why..some may not agree
some people say tune wot with the rrfpr and just use the controler to just pull .. so if the controler goes bad you are ok.....well my thinking is it is more likely that you will blow the line off the rrfpr WOT at max boost....it goes straight lean right now..You are flat out wide open very high likelyhood of going boom..
most likely if the the rude controler goes bad it will start messing up all over being erratic......even in the no wake zones ect you are more likely to see it is mesing up and at low speeds most likely it wont hurt the engine...
as i said this is my opinion..i am currently running 50# with the rrfpr but going to 60# and going to eliminate it..
as for tuning the rude controler...
this is the best way i have found to explaine ..how it works....think of a 10 in the cell as being 100% of what the ecu would do without it.....if you put a 11 in the cell you are asking for 110% or an increase of 10% in fuel....and the same goes for subtracting..if you put a 9 in a particular cell you want the ecu to only send 90% of the fuel it is programed for..for a decrease in fuel of 10% a 9.1 would be a decrease of 9% and so on ..you dont want the number in the cells to change to much from one cell to the next or it will be erattic try and keep them .3 differnt at most..if possible ..
if you under stand how it works..the controler goes between the map sensor and the ecu so the ecu now sees the rude controler as the map sensor...the controler changes the voltage it gets from the map sensor then sends it to the ecu... if you change it to much the ecu thinks the map sensor has gone bad ..and will ignore the signal and or send a faulty map sensor code...this seems to start happening around 7 or a -30%so you cant just go huge with the injectors and think it will be abel to correct..for it..
i start tuning on the trailer..at the ramp running the ski on the trailer in the water ..you can get the drivability close up to about 3000 i start the map buy just changine the whole rpm band ..if it is a few points lean at 5000 rpm i will highlight the entire rpm range and it will say change buy and i ill add say 3% and try again ..ince i get it all close ..then i hook the lap top up and go ride it..watching the af guage..and holding the lap top between my knees ..the cell the rude controler is using is highlighted..blue..i ride real slow idle 2500 3000 ect watch the af guage when you see a af ratio you dont like i put my thumb on it stop and make the correction and up load ..and go again you may spend a day or so doing this it depends on how exact you want it .the longer you spend the better it will be....it gets a litttle tricky once you get up 7500 8000 just be careful to watch where you are going and go somewhere opn flat and low traffic...
you will never get it to be perfect everywhere in the rpm range at every throddle position..every ride..but get it close..dont stress over it the low speed cruze stuff.you wont hurt it there even if a little lean... if you are a little rich ..you just wont get as good of gas milage ..and need to change your oil more often......if you want it perfect everywhere you need to step up to a motec...and spend alot of time..for the money the rude controler is an awsome tuning tool because it only can cange every 500 rpm just not as liner as a motec a motec can do it every 50 rpm so it is more precice...and it can do alot more than fuel...but for most of your tuning needs as rec riders this will get it samfe and very drivable it doesn need to spudder load up ect in the no wake zones the controler can correct all that
alot of thing can change the af a little temp humidity ect... IMO within .3 except wot is perfectly acceptable......but wide open needs to be right......
as for af...i shoot for
idle 13 -13.5 (this is what the riva ecu with there 50 was..) above this it will break up and miss especially if your plugs arent perfect.
0 boost cruze 13=12.5 in this range..this is also what the riva ecu was you sill get good milage and not need to change your oil..any more than normal
for every lb of boost i add... i like to shoot for about the af drop about .1 give or take a little from 13 to a wot of 11.7
anything above 12 wot you are in the danger zone...
you will see 12 af ratio with the riva s3 set up but it is only 10 psi..over 10 psi you need to bring it a little richer...
HOPE THIS HELPS
10-05-2010, 09:40 PM #8
breon. I read your post earlier and it is helpfull. I am keeping the Rude for now, just setting everything at 10 and see how the afr's pan out. I would like to get my wot afr's good with the reg and pull fuel if needed low and mid with the rude.
10-05-2010, 09:52 PM #9
just trying to help ..it is a good thing to have because you will probably make more changes down the road....
10-05-2010, 10:19 PM #10
+1... The controller wasn't a waste of money at all, they work great! Especially when only running a single fuel regulator set-up. This may have been covered (didn't read that book that Breon wrote... lol) but... get your WOT a/f ratio tuned in by your fuel pressure only (All 10's in the controller), then "clean up" the rest of the RPM a/f ratio's with the controller.
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