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  1. #1
    Matrix 4-Tec spannerspencer's Avatar
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    oily pto spark plug on msg 150. ruinning horribly, hard to start too.

    hi guys, im really not having a good time with my msx 150, i bought it with 50 hours, with a dicky ecu (stuck in protection mode) so, sent ecu to desperado (presicionsports) for stage 1 remap. while this was being done, i sorted usual problems (oil tank etc)

    now, fitted new ecu and all was ACE! ran like a dream! so took it for its first run, and it was great, hitting 7500rpm and very fast/smooth. that lasted 10 minutes before limited to 5100rpm (this turned out to be the ETB, it popped off the inlet manifold - (ok ill hold my hand up to this, as i did take that off!)

    now, that sorted, i took the ski out for its second run.

    it started and idled like a dream on the driveway, i set off for 2 hour drive to the wet stuff, and just about to dip it in, i gave it a quick start before putting it in and it sounded horrible, sounded like on one cylinder, distinctive loud chug.

    by this time my jaw dropped so far i think it smashed threw the slipway.

    so what is it now? the PTO plug is getting very oily. why??

    the MAG plug has had oil on it (on and off)hasnt been oil again now since tho.
    ive pluged in my diagnostic sanner, no codes, ....

    now, this could be the link to it all?

    i put new mobil1 oil in it, and filled it as per manual (cold check) and was finding it difficult to get as reading off the bottom of the dip-stick (even when screwed in) so i must have put like 4lts in.

    when i checked the dipstic when got it home, is was showing high, and i couldnt work out why! i pulled off the return oil hose to top of tank, and placed the hose into a clear bottle, when the engine was ran up, the oil seemed under huge pressure and just 'spat irraticly' into the clear bottle. and smoked!! (if it was spitting as though under pressure, it could have just been covering the whole of the dipstic (the return hose was very presurised, it wasnt before - its almost like exhaust gasses are geting into oil)

    when i take the spark plugs out after a start, the plug holes smoke

    with the dipstic out, it smokes from tank too, i would say the smoke is like exhaust gases smoulder..

    the exhaust outlet has smoked badly once. blue ploom.

    what the heck is going on now? could i have over filled it? the boost pipes are clean as a whistle, so oil isnt geting in via induction. and the compression is fine, it really is, i keep checking, think the MAG is 10psi up on the PTO, but it was before. i cant believe its the rings. could it be head gasket? really?

    just feel so bumed out.

    if i cant sort this, i think ill pull the engine, and to an engine transplant.

    i really hope some clever person can suggest somthing.
    i took the rocker cover off, not much to see, just everything is dripping wet/swiming with oil (i assume thats normal?)

    fingers crossed for suggestions.

    thanks, spence.


  2. #2
    jackofalltrades's Avatar
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    Sounds like you have too much oil in it. The oil level marks on the dipstick are not correct from the factory. This can cause some big time damage to the sensors and engine. According to the TSB, the only proper way to check the oil is after running the engine at idle for 30 seconds and without screwing the dip stick back in it should read at the proper level. If you check it cold and and it isnt touching the stick this is normal. This would explain why it was showing high after you ran it. Check out this thread http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/show...r-Stroke-Weber Also, if you havent done so previously check out K447's signature links. Lots of good info there that pertains to oil level and several other issues.

  3. #3
    Kosh's Avatar
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    +1 that is way to much oil. With a new engine you would be going to use more than 3.8L on an oil change, depending how good and patient you were at removing the old oil you might use just over 3 L in a refill

    Drain some out and see how you go.

    Check the oil operated breather valve on your oil tank(if you are still using the original style)
    To make sure it is allowing the engine to breathe once started. Crankcase is sealed once the oil pressure dissapeares.

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Arrow How to change the oil and check the oil level on Weber turbo engines (MSX 150 & 110)

    I think this thread would be an excellent place for a clear description of exactly how to check the oil level and read the dipstick on these Weber engines.

    And describe exactly how to get the correct amount of oil in after an oil change.


    In terms of oil levels these Weber MPE750 engines are quite different from most engines people are familiar with, and this leads to errors. The service and owners manuals don't really do the best in this regard, hence the recurring problems with oil levels on the Weber engines.

    Many owners worry about having too little oil in their engine. For these Weber motors, even a little bit too much oil causes problems.

    Also, the stock ECU fuel mapping is very rich and results in rapid degradation of the oil from gasoline contamination (via piston blowby). Frequent oil changes are highly recommended. There are only a couple of oils that are compatible with the Weber engine. Make sure you are using the correct oil, and have the correct amount in the engine.

    Here are some notes and other threads on the subject;

    Oil level markings on the dipstick are incorrect.

    Too much oil in the tank causes excess oil to be pushed into intake tract, which contaminates the sensors, and reduces engine RPM and power.
    It can also clog up the entire intercooler

    How to correctly set the oil level for the Weber engine
    Dipstick level check
    - Alternate description


    Is the following as correct and complete as it can be?

    Weber MPE750 engine oil level check, Cold engine
    Verify that the watercraft is level.
    Run engine at idle speed for about 30 seconds. Stop engine.
    Unscrew dipstick, remove and wipe off dipstick.
    Place back in tank (do not screw down), then remove and read stick.
    Maintain the oil level at anywhere from just on the stick up to the Add Oil mark
    Any higher than this will be over filled.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #5
    Matrix 4-Tec spannerspencer's Avatar
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    K447 THANKS FOR THE PIC OF OIL DIP STICK, OK I HAVE PIC BUT YOUVE SIMPLIFIED IT WITH THE GREEN TEXT/IMAGEwell all three replys have been helpful, and yes, ive pumped out about 1.5litrs of oil, and all seems ok today. so that must have been it. i didnt actually get round to actually running it with that much oil so should be ok, i was awaire of the "how too" checking the oil level, it says this way in my manual, and i found the polaris team tips on this forum too :0) as for the oil level, the reason i kept topping up with oil, was only cos even when doing the 30sec cold run i couldnt get any reading, even with cap screwed in, that still the case now.

    the only issue i now have is intimitant max boost (bascly sat at 6k for most for the time, then would suddenly boost up and shoot to 7700ish rpm and fly! then off WOT and back on WOT it wouldnt always shoot back to 7700, so im guessing the map/boost sensor? i havent checked the inlet again yet or oil, but ill check for contamination (ive previously blocked off the vaccume hose from the air box to the oil tank, so shouldnt be to much oil in there.)

    one other thing, is the top of the oil tank meant to get hot? and is it abnormal for these engines to be a tad smokey? im used to the 2stroke oil puffs whilst riding, and this weber engine looks like sometimes it does it too. (when the ski is ridden for a short 10min ride, a reasonable amount of black soot is present on the hull all around the exhaust area, and near the left edge rear of ski. (i have a white hull, so perhaps most people wouldnt notice this?)

    im on the fence about doing an engine swop, dont get my wrong, i love the engineering with this engine, i just want to play on it for longer amounts of time than i have to spin spanners on it!

    when the engine is started on the driveway, i cant help but think im smelling burnt oil, such a distinctive smell.

    GUYS, I NEED TO BE HONEST AND EXPLAIN WHAT IVE DONE WITH MY OIL TANK, I DONT KNOW IF YOU SAW THE SECTION I WROTE IN THE OIL TANK REPAIR SECTION, BUT BASICLY I KINDA BLEW UP MY OIL TANK TRYING TO SEPERATE THE TWO HALFS, OK SO I MANAGED TO SAVE IT FROM THE BIN, AND REBULT IT. EVEN WITH MY BEST EFFORTS AND PERMINANT BONDING TIGER SEAL AROUND THE O'SEALS/FACES I WAS STILL GETTING BLOW-BY FROM OIL-TO-WATER JACKET, SO IVE SIMPLY BYPASSED THE WATER JACKET (WAS THIS A STUPID THING TODO?) I RAN A HOSE FROM WATER TO WATER HEAT EXCHANGER TO THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD JETS.

    MY LOGIC FOR THIS WAS THAT OIL WAS GOING THREW AN OIL COOLER, AND RETURNING INTO THE TANK "COOLED" AND AS I COULD SEE IT, THE RAW WATER GOING THREW THE INTERCOOLER WOULD GET 'WARMED', AND BY THE TIME IT WENT THREW THE WATER-TO-WATER HEAT EXCHANGER IT WOULD BE 'QUITE WARM' AND I CANT SEE THE LOGIC FOR A WARM WATER JACKET AROUND COOLED OIL? I HAVNET TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT THE HIGH PRESSURE OIL RETURN HOSE, PERHAPS THIS IS MAKING THE TOP OF THE TANK HOT? WHEN I LOOKED INTO THE ENGINE BAY JUST AFTER THE RUN, THE OIL RETURN FROM OIL COOLER DID SEEM VERY WARM TO THE TOUCH. SO PERHAPS THE WATER JACKET IS NEEDED AFTER ALL. DOH- WOULD THIS CAUSE THE OIL TO GET HOT, RESULTING IN A BIT OF SMOKE WHILST RIDING?

  6. #6
    jackofalltrades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spannerspencer View Post
    [B]SO IVE SIMPLY BYPASSED THE WATER JACKET (WAS THIS A STUPID THING TODO?) I RAN A HOSE FROM WATER TO WATER HEAT EXCHANGER TO THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD JETS.

    I HAVNET TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT THE HIGH PRESSURE OIL RETURN HOSE, PERHAPS THIS IS MAKING THE TOP OF THE TANK HOT? WHEN I LOOKED INTO THE ENGINE BAY JUST AFTER THE RUN, THE OIL RETURN FROM OIL COOLER DID SEEM VERY WARM TO THE TOUCH. SO PERHAPS THE WATER JACKET IS NEEDED AFTER ALL. DOH- WOULD THIS CAUSE THE OIL TO GET HOT, RESULTING IN A BIT OF SMOKE WHILST RIDING?
    I am not an expert by any means in regard to this engine however, I would put it back like it was. It was that way for a reason and eliminating the oil from routing through a water jacket and essentially putting all the cooling effort on the oil cooler is a likely cause of why your oil tank is hot or rather why your oil is really hot on the return side. The water jacket temp is likely much cooler than the oil running through it and its a combination of it and the oil cooler that would take some of the heat out of the oil. As for the smoke while riding, it is possible I guess to get the oil hot enough to blow by the rings in small amounts. Whether or not this is causing your smoke while riding I dont know. In regard to your intermittent boost issue, excessive oil can damage the waste gate so it is possible there is a problem there. I could be off track here so wait for some of the more experienced guys to jump in and lend some experience to this.

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