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  1. #1
    ph2ocraft's Avatar
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    The stage II Matrix is running again

    Well I'm off to the lake Thursday for this extended weekend and we'll see what she does again. It sounds great on the trailer, it still has that famous CRACK when goosed. LOL I'm looking forward to getting back a day early and hitting the quads. I just taught my son to use a clutch so he's all GUNG HO!!


  2. #2

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    whew thats sweet , i havent been following on this project you have any pictures buddy ? i wonder what it will do also,

    im so jealous got tha sltx an matrix i wanna matrix now but my sltx is still my baby
    Last edited by Bone1050; 11-21-2006 at 10:40 PM.

  3. #3
    ph2ocraft's Avatar
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    Clixk on my gallery and go to Matrix, you'll find tons of pictures. I'll have a 1350 for the 04 pretty shortly.

  4. #4
    Connecticut CrazyA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ocraft View Post
    Well I'm off to the lake Thursday for this extended weekend and we'll see what she does again.
    What was found, and what has been changed since last time?

    # of fuel supply's?

    Water exit routing?

    Jetting? (did you fatten up the low and midrange areas?)


    I DO NOT like this!!! (see pic below)
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  5. #5

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    ph2o your my brother from a different mother wish i was in cali so i could rip it up all year ,

    my rig is just sitting in tha lonely truck bay at tha end of my shop screaming an crying ride me ,

    i seen these guys rideing yesterday , i was just shakeing my head oh god know , tha air is average temp of 40-50* imagine tha water has got 2 be 35-40 ,

    i dont want any lake sweat in my motor so ill pass till march ,

  6. #6
    ph2ocraft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyA View Post
    What was found, and what has been changed since last time?

    # of fuel supply's?

    Water exit routing?

    Jetting? (did you fatten up the low and midrange areas?)
    Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

    I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

    In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
    If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
    With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs, you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
    Less items to check or have go wrong.

    In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
    If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston, gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
    So I went with the 3 pick-ups.

    I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.

    I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine. Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
    So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....

    More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???

  7. #7
    Connecticut CrazyA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ocraft View Post
    Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

    I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

    Al,
    Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!!

    In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?

    How do you know this??? If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
    If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.

    If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
    With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,

    I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!!

    you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.

    Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!!

    Less items to check or have go wrong.

    In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
    If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,

    That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.

    gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
    So I went with the 3 pick-ups.

    I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.

    That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!!

    I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine. Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL

    Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!

    So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....

    More fuel, less timing?

    More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???
    .

  8. #8
    ph2ocraft's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ph2ocraft
    Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

    I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

    Al,
    Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!!

    LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
    In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?

    How do you know this??? If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
    If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.

    I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
    I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would?? .

    If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
    With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,

    I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!!

    If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
    Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.

    you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.

    Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!!

    My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.

    Less items to check or have go wrong.

    In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
    If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,

    That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.

    The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL

    gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
    So I went with the 3 pick-ups.

    I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.

    That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!!

    I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

    I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine. Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL

    Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!

    So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....

    More fuel, less timing?

    I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??

    More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???


    I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).

  9. #9
    Connecticut CrazyA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ocraft View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ph2ocraft
    Interesting you should ask and I will get some pictures this weekend.

    I DID add 2 more fuel supply lines, which does bring up an interesting topic and I think some input would be cool for everybody as there are two sides of the story involving 3 seperate supply lines.

    Al,
    Now you're just trying to stir the pot and you know it!!!
    LOL There are valid reasons for each side. I guess it comes down to, how safe is safe.
    No such thing... if it's supplying exactly what it needs to, how would anything more be safer?
    In defense for the single supply line; The standard single feed line will supply enough fuel to the system, so why bother with the added lines?
    How do you know this??? If you're using the "look how big the line is compared to the jets it's feeding" theory, there could be more to it than meets the eye. Let's not forget that pressure and volume are 2 different things, and that water seperators, fuel filters, fuel valves, fittings, and so on, all create restrictions, as well as "frictional losses" through any given length of hose used.
    If I ran a 1/4" line the length of a football field, I would be hesitant to try and feed my triple 48mm NOVIS with it.
    I always make sure I have 6 pounds of pressure at the return line under ALL circumstances. IF the pressure is 6 pounds you safely have enough fuel to supply those thirsty 48's.
    I'll agree to that, IF, you agree then that it makes no difference where the return fitting is located on the SL 750 rail. 6lbs. is 6lbs, doesn't matter if you return it in the front or rear.
    I also wouldn't use 1/4 in line to supply the 48's 100 yards away, nbut then again who would?? .
    You got me!!!
    If the fuel if restricted (rust in tank, line falling apart etc.) to any one carb will mean instant death to that cylinder due to lean run condition.
    With the single feed line plugged or partially blocked you will still deliver some fuel to all carbs,
    I dont understand this sentence? If my line is plugged, I'm still gonna get fuel? How's that? I gotta hear this one!!
    If you have a patrtial blockage within the system (single feed system), let's say a fuel valve you will still supply fuel to the system, it will be weak BUT it will be present and you should experience a loss of RPM to indicate an issue.
    Now let's say that same piece of debris made it's way to the MAG carb (three seperate feed lines) and wedged itself around the needle/seat and no fuel or very little passes, that cylinder will be toast due to IT running lean, by the time you noticed it, it would be to late.
    Believe me, I understand "partial blockage". You said, "With the single feed line PLUGGED or partially blocked..." I was questioning the PLUGGRD part.
    you should lose RPM which indicates an issue and tells you to shut down.
    Hope you got a real quick trigger finger!!
    My wife says so, BUT let's not get into that.
    Mine says the same about me, so it's a draw there!!!
    Less items to check or have go wrong.
    In defense for the triple supply lines; The more the merrier I always say.
    If let's say just one carb picks up garbage and kills one cylinder, well hey it's only one cylinder and not ALL cylinders if the problem happens to occur on a high speed run and the RPM drop wasn't noticed on time. At roughly 400 a cyl. 140 piston,
    That's old school Al. When I make a shipment to you next week, get used to $236/piston. But, point taken.
    The good news is it's still within my budget. LOL
    $hit, pocket lint for you!!!
    gaskets, clips etc. a 600+ repair is better than 1800 dollar repair.
    So I went with the 3 pick-ups.
    I left the cooling as was BUT I do see the ugly restriction at that junction and I can tell you that front cylinder got waaaayyyyy warm, I'm sure I'll have to look into that.
    That's because the front mag cover cooling mod and the other 2 head outlets closest to the exit are stuffing that forward cylinder. Please change that tonight!!!
    I think I'll head that advise and take the stuff with me!! I do LOVE working at the lake, the birds are chirpin, the water looks inviting and I'm not rushed or bothered by anybody. Sigggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
    I hope you do this sooner than later.
    I did fatten the carbs, which brings up another very interesting topic. Why did she burn that forward cylinder in the first place? We were just cruising............ Well we know too much timing with not enough fuel with to much compression equals death. But I had my normal 50/50 race fuel, same timing, same jetting. The difference was the cruising speeds brought me to max timing and with only a 50% ratio 110/91 octane I killed my engine. Can we say detonation??? It doesn't pay to ride slow!!!!!! LOL
    Exactly. Clean, crisp, (slightly lean?) midrange at max. timing and a hot front cylinder (see above) due to cooling issues = bad day!!!
    So why does my 04 NEVER give a problem?? Keihin carbs with a better fuel circuit?? Me thinks so....
    More fuel, less timing?
    I'm pretty sure the Keihins are delivering a little more fuel and it doesn't go quite as lean at that critical transition??
    More later I have to get the kids to school, but some things to think about and how about some input???
    I really hate to answer this in a hurry but I'll be back (best Arnold voice).
    All kidding aside, I like to run multiple feeds and ALWAYS check fuel pressure. It's better (in my opinion) to have overkill available. I'm not worried about more things to go wrong, I'm worried about making sure that there's enough of a supply that I never have to have these "second guess" thoughts.

  10. #10
    Altron's Avatar
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    Wow guys this is great stuff. Al, I sure hope that when we finally get together for a ride that you can teach me some of this two stroke stuff. After my 150 rebuild I am ready for another challenge.

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