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  1. #1
    philip_gpr's Avatar
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    I am so tired of the R2 vs Motec/Vipec debate

    There are 2 major differences between a reflash and a Motec/Vipec.

    First is with a reflash you ability to tune the engine is limited to:

    1) increasing fuel a bit in very restricted ranges and rpm points using a $450 Powershot

    2) increasing fuel pressure which provides the same increase in fuel flow across the complete RPM range (which is never want you want) $100 to $200 for a new fuel pump

    3) use a rising rate fuel pressure regulator which will increase the fuel flow as boost pressure increases - some of the more advanced regulators allow the rate at which the fuel flow is increased to be adjusted $200 to $400

    4) use larger injectors which increase fuel flow across the complete rpm range $500 to $700

    5) Reflash has no ability to adjust the timing, rev limits, etc.

    The second big difference is a Motec / vipec ECU will log what is going on with the motor.

    This information can then be used to help tune the motor and to ensure the build is functioning correctly. Are the oil temps correct, are the water temps correct, etc., etc.

    Closing Comments

    The more boost you run the more challenging it becomes to get the tune right.

    The above mentioned 5 items for use in tuning with a reflash, while being primitive compared to the capabilities of a a Motec / Vipec, do allow the job to get done.

    A rec rider running less than 15 lbs boost is the target market for a reflash.

    A rec rider with 15 / 22 lbs could go either way.

    Above 18 lbs with turbos, rods, pistons, etc a Motec / Vipec makes a lot of sense.

    If you race then a Motec / Vipec might be worth having so you could adjust the timing.


  2. #2
    SHOBiz's Avatar
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    "f you are investing $5,000 or more in a Turbo kit it would be, dare I say it, silly to use a reflash."

    Why not, if it works.

    Many set it and forget it and do not have an urge to check logs or tweak settings after every 30 minutes of riding.
    There are alot of options on the newer skis and it is not do it this way or you are wrong. You can accomplish goals in many ways. FWIW, I don't care who uses what. Just ride.

  3. #3
    Moderator beerdart's Avatar
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  4. #4
    MR MAC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOBiz View Post
    "f you are investing $5,000 or more in a Turbo kit it would be, dare I say it, silly to use a reflash."

    Why not, if it works.

    Many set it and forget it and do not have an urge to check logs or tweak settings after every 30 minutes of riding.
    There are alot of options on the newer skis and it is not do it this way or you are wrong. You can accomplish goals in many ways. FWIW, I don't care who uses what. Just ride.
    i agree... why waste money if u dont need to....

  5. #5
    philip_gpr's Avatar
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    Why not, if it works.

    Some additional comments on Turbos

    Maybe I just assumed if you are going to the expense of putting on a Turbo you would be running the boost pretty high, 20 lbs plus.

    Which means there would be $5,000 in turbo kit and another $2,000 to $4,000 if beefed up internals

    So now we have a motor worth $10,000+ that we want to protect from failure

    Turbo set-ups are in their infancy and without logging, without the ability to fine tune the fuel map and without the ability to adjust the timing it just gets so difficult to get the tune right in the 1st place.

    Without logging it makes it more difficult to keep track of what is going on to ensure everything is running within safe paramters.

    The real difference in cost between reflash and Vipec would be arond $1500. By buying a used Vipec you can lower this delta to $500. It just seems to me to protect the motor and to maximize the potential HP from the motor in high boost applications a Motec/Vipec just makes good sense.

  6. #6
    SHOBiz's Avatar
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    Not going to start yet another agrument thread. Not everyone wants to push as must boost as possible and just wants a good fast ski that is reliable.
    I am doing what I want to do until someone else starts paying the bills.

  7. #7
    THE PLATE MAN JIM'S PERFORMANCE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOBiz View Post
    Not going to start yet another agrument thread.
    I am doing what I want to do until someone else starts paying the bills.
    +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000

  8. #8
    philip_gpr's Avatar
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    To help illustrate the dilema

    Lets say we want to run 23 lbs boost

    With a reflash, and I don't care which one you use

    What fuel pressure do you use?

    What rising rate do you use?

    What injector size do you use?

    So we select all of that and now we want to adjust the tune

    How do you adjust the tune just at at 3,000?
    just at 4,000 rpm?
    just at 5,000 rpm?
    just at 6,000 rpm?
    just at 7,000 rpm?
    just at 8,000 rpm?
    just at 9,000 rpm?

    what If I said
    just at 3,000?
    just at 3,500?
    just at 4,000?
    etc
    etc

    To get the tune correct with a reflash at every rpm point is a real challenge and typically requires some juggling of fuel pressures, injector sizes and rising rates etc.

  9. #9
    THE PLATE MAN JIM'S PERFORMANCE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philip_gpr View Post
    To help illustrate the dilema

    Lets say we want to run 23 lbs boost

    With a reflash, and I don't care which one you use

    What fuel pressure do you use?

    What rising rate do you use?

    What injector size do you use?

    So we select all of that and now we want to adjust the tune

    How do you adjust the tune just at at 3,000?
    just at 4,000 rpm?
    just at 5,000 rpm?
    just at 6,000 rpm?
    just at 7,000 rpm?
    just at 8,000 rpm?
    just at 9,000 rpm?

    what If I said
    just at 3,000?
    just at 3,500?
    just at 4,000?
    etc
    etc

    The problem is you can't. With the tools available with a reflash you can't fine tune things.

    So now the tune ends up being one big compromise, usually we are able to get the tune at WOT spot on, but the rest of the rpm range could be all over the place.
    I have been running a reflash with 22 pounds of boost on my conversion for a very long time now with no issue what's so ever, With stock internals. Riding it in the gulf weekly and the same with my SHO i beat the hell out of it from day 1 and that is running 16 plus pounds of boost and on both ski's the way i set them the AFR'S are perfect through out the RPM range, There are ski's around here that have everything you can buy and are breaking down. So what's the moral of the story, in my case i will not touch a thing i believe in if it ain't broke leave it along.

    Please no one take this as an attack on anyone because it is not, I just have had excellent results with my setups and would not change it for anything. Thank you, Jim

  10. #10
    rxpdoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIM'S PERFORMANCE View Post
    I have been running a reflash with 22 pounds of boost on my conversion for a very long time now with no issue what's so ever, With stock internals. Riding it in the gulf weekly and the same with my SHO i beat the hell out of it from day 1 and that is running 16 plus pounds of boost and on both ski the way i set them the AFR'S are perfect through out the RPM range, There are ski's around here that have everything you can buy and are breaking down. So what's the moral of the story, in my case i will not touch a thing i believe in if it ain't broke leave it along.
    i agree with you. also who is to say that even with a standalone the average rider are not making things worse. you will need an expert tuner

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