Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 47
  1. #1
    shhr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Springfield,TN
    Posts
    2,546
    +1
    311

    To Sleeve or Not to Sleeve

    Ok just looking for what you guys think,

    if you are building a motor when would you use the sleeves or would you?

    I am thinking that if you are staying with the standard bore or maybe 1mm over the block is ok but if you are going big bore like 88,89, or 90MM then sleeves are the best option


  2. #2
    hitman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    4,328
    +1
    12
    Are you going to at lease clean up the stock bores? I bet they are pretty far off tolerance wise.

  3. #3
    shhr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Springfield,TN
    Posts
    2,546
    +1
    311
    Are you going to at lease clean up the stock bores? I bet they are pretty far off tolerance wise.

    Yes I would clean them up, so you guys running sleeves why did you go that route?

  4. #4
    THE PLATE MAN JIM'S PERFORMANCE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,194
    +1
    536
    Quote Originally Posted by shhr View Post
    Are you going to at lease clean up the stock bores? I bet they are pretty far off tolerance wise.

    Yes I would clean them up, so you guys running sleeves why did you go that route?
    If the cylinders have any waves in them you need to sleeve them.

  5. #5
    jetpilot785's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Buffalo,NY
    Posts
    669
    +1
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by shhr View Post
    Ok just looking for what you guys think,

    if you are building a motor when would you use the sleeves or would you?

    I am thinking that if you are staying with the standard bore or maybe 1mm over the block is ok but if you are going big bore like 88,89, or 90MM then sleeves are the best option
    There is another recent thread with some discussion on the block and what is used. Alot of people are told it is a cast iron sleeve in the stock block and it is not. It is a process known as Ferral plating or also known as flame-spray iron plating which is a plating process used in the automotive industry to give the cylinder wall a iron based surface for increased strength on an aluminum bore while also maintaining a lighter weight than a sleeve. The main issue with these factory blocks is the aluminum cast and in alot of cases, a mass produced item such as engine blocks are not usually cast with the best materials which results in impurities and and generally a softer metal that tends to warp in high performance and/or high heat applications.

    The plating they used is designed to reinforce and help the block maintain its structural integrity but since it is chemically bonded to the bore of the aluminum block, it also will expand and contract with the aluminum alot more than if it were a two piece setup such as a cast iron/steel sleeve. Since the stacks on these blocks are tall and relatively unsupported, they have a higher risk of warping which also causes the plating to warp with it causing irregular bore dimension which in turn causes alot of the poor ring seal and wavey bores some of us are seeing which will cause GIO and the higher the boost, the more GIO is detected as it forces the blow by with greater ease.

    I have researched this heavily and I myself was looking into punching the block out to 88-90mm and having it Nikasiled but after having a look at the block myself and talking with several companies that specialize in various plating techniques, I elected to get the block sleeved as the even thinner aluminum stacks after boring will not hold up to the heat and pressure of a big bore kit. I also asked about boring the block .020-.040" as Riva offers oversized pistons and after much discussion and thought, I still elected to get it releeved and increase the meat in the bore with a thicker sleeve.

    I don't know if the stock bore can be bored and sized for another piston. I am guessing so since Riva offers a couple oversized pistons for it or there is a possibility they don't mention it would have to be stripped, bored and replated. I don't know as I didn't bother to research it and my reasoning is if the stock plating thinkness doesn't work that well as is, what will it be like if you can bore and resize it with a bigger piston in turn making the plating thinner and even less likely to hold up. The big question is if the stock bore is boreable, would it hold up or would you be in the same boat as the stock bore and toss the $1500 out the window between materials and labor or just go with the 1.9l R&D big bore kit or something similar for the a little more money.

    As you have discovered yourself shhr through experience and in our PM's, you have already tried the Nikasil idea with MT and it didn't work out and 2 other companies I have talked to won't even touch it as they are already aware of the issues with this block and that the plating they use and the quality of the aluminum used in the blocks won't handle the heat and boost pressures these engines make. My guess is you would go sleeve at this point lol. I elected to go with the 1.9 kit from R&D because I couldn't justify spending almost the same money for the same size or slightly bigger than stock and gamble that the stock plating will hold up to the new bore when it couldn't maintain its integrity in stock form.

    To each their own but these are my thoughts and findings through personal experience with casting, porting and plating our own cylinders and also with the past and present experience with these types of engines. If anyone has bored out their stock blocks because of factory defects, it would be nice of them to share their experience with that.

  6. #6
    lets race.... mikeFZR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    4,134
    +1
    205
    Quote Originally Posted by jetpilot785 View Post
    There is another recent thread with some discussion on the block and what is used. Alot of people are told it is a cast iron sleeve in the stock block and it is not. It is a process known as Ferral plating or also known as flame-spray iron plating which is a plating process used in the automotive industry to give the cylinder wall a iron based surface for increased strength on an aluminum bore while also maintaining a lighter weight than a sleeve. The main issue with these factory blocks is the aluminum cast and in alot of cases, a mass produced item such as engine blocks are not usually cast with the best materials which results in impurities and and generally a softer metal that tends to warp in high performance and/or high heat applications.

    The plating they used is designed to reinforce and help the block maintain its structural integrity but since it is chemically bonded to the bore of the aluminum block, it also will expand and contract with the aluminum alot more than if it were a two piece setup such as a cast iron/steel sleeve. Since the stacks on these blocks are tall and relatively unsupported, they have a higher risk of warping which also causes the plating to warp with it causing irregular bore dimension which in turn causes alot of the poor ring seal and wavey bores some of us are seeing which will cause GIO and the higher the boost, the more GIO is detected as it forces the blow by with greater ease.

    I have researched this heavily and I myself was looking into punching the block out to 88-90mm and having it Nikasiled but after having a look at the block myself and talking with several companies that specialize in various plating techniques, I elected to get the block sleeved as the even thinner aluminum stacks after boring will not hold up to the heat and pressure of a big bore kit. I also asked about boring the block .020-.040" as Riva offers oversized pistons and after much discussion and thought, I still elected to get it releeved and increase the meat in the bore with a thicker sleeve.

    I don't know if the stock bore can be bored and sized for another piston. I am guessing so since Riva offers a couple oversized pistons for it or there is a possibility they don't mention it would have to be stripped, bored and replated. I don't know as I didn't bother to research it and my reasoning is if the stock plating thinkness doesn't work that well as is, what will it be like if you can bore and resize it with a bigger piston in turn making the plating thinner and even less likely to hold up. The big question is if the stock bore is boreable, would it hold up or would you be in the same boat as the stock bore and toss the $1500 out the window between materials and labor or just go with the 1.9l R&D big bore kit or something similar for the a little more money.

    As you have discovered yourself shhr through experience and in our PM's, you have already tried the Nikasil idea with MT and it didn't work out and 2 other companies I have talked to won't even touch it as they are already aware of the issues with this block and that the plating they use and the quality of the aluminum used in the blocks won't handle the heat and boost pressures these engines make. My guess is you would go sleeve at this point lol. I elected to go with the 1.9 kit from R&D because I couldn't justify spending almost the same money for the same size or slightly bigger than stock and gamble that the stock plating will hold up to the new bore when it couldn't maintain its integrity in stock form.

    To each their own but these are my thoughts and findings through personal experience with casting, porting and plating our own cylinders and also with the past and present experience with these types of engines. If anyone has bored out their stock blocks because of factory defects, it would be nice of them to share their experience with that.
    I think I've read this whole thing 3 times in 3 different threads.....

  7. #7
    Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    10,004
    +1
    406
    Quote Originally Posted by shhr View Post
    Are you going to at lease clean up the stock bores? I bet they are pretty far off tolerance wise.

    Yes I would clean them up, so you guys running sleeves why did you go that route?
    With your intentions I would go the MID route. There are many weakpoints on this motor and all need to be addressed with a little outside the box thinking. Not sure how overbore I would go not knowing what head gaskets can be made. I would also consider O-ringing the block or head if there is enough room.

  8. #8
    shhr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Springfield,TN
    Posts
    2,546
    +1
    311
    If anyone has bored out their stock blocks because of factory defects, it would be nice of them to share their experience with that.
    +1 that would be some good info if anyone has done that with success

  9. #9
    jetpilot785's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Buffalo,NY
    Posts
    669
    +1
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeFZR View Post
    I think I've read this whole thing 3 times in 3 different threads.....
    Not to sound like an A-hole but if my posts are too long or my attempts to contribute to the cause are unwanted, then I will leave the forum. People ask questions and want to know things and if I can shed some light on certain things to help people out, I like to do that as I appreciate the same and I like to give good intelligent answers and I am sorry if it offends or annoys people but more info is better than less info in my book. If 20+ years of riding experienceand 15+ years of designing, building and racing snowmobiles and pwc for HTG Racing/Factory Polaris with some of those years with Yamaha is not enough to contribute in your eyes, feel free to give us your "expert" findings and personal R&D on everything. I don't know everything and don't claim to but I do have quite a bit of knowledge that can be useful to most people.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    3,847
    +1
    528
    Quote Originally Posted by jetpilot785 View Post
    Not to sound like an A-hole but if my posts are too long or my attempts to contribute to the cause are unwanted, then I will leave the forum. People ask questions and want to know things and if I can shed some light on certain things to help people out, I like to do that as I appreciate the same and I like to give good intelligent answers and I am sorry if it offends or annoys people but more info is better than less info in my book. If 20+ years of riding experienceand 15+ years of designing, building and racing snowmobiles and pwc for HTG Racing/Factory Polaris with some of those years with Yamaha is not enough to contribute in your eyes, feel free to give us your "expert" findings and personal R&D on everything. I don't know everything and don't claim to but I do have quite a bit of knowledge that can be useful to most people.
    Don't let some of these guys get to you. I enjoy reading your post. You offer a lot of good information to this forum. I appreciate it even if others do not . Thanks for posting! Tommy Jordan

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. To Sleeve or not to sleeve?
    By Hexec in forum Yamaha PWC Performance (2-stroke)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-24-2014, 02:19 PM
  2. to sleeve or not to sleeve
    By kzzzski in forum Yamaha PWC Performance (2-stroke)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 08-16-2012, 11:11 AM
  3. To sleeve or not to sleeve that is the ?
    By YAMAN in forum Yamaha PWC Performance (2-stroke)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-31-2007, 07:55 PM
  4. To mod or not to mod?
    By MikeTrin in forum Sea Doo Open Discussion
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 01-11-2006, 02:58 PM
  5. To wedge or not to wedge
    By Phil in forum 4-Tec Performance
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-12-2005, 11:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •