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  1. #1
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    MSX 110/150 - Hot engine restart troubles?

    So I had an awesome maiden voyage for my rebuilt MSX150. The beast runs better than I could have ever imagined.
    To read more about that... see my project thread: Think I got a deal... new MSX 150 owner

    Well the day would have been perfect... but I do have one issue to contend with. Trouble on hot restarts.

    After a good run... I idle in to my dock/beach. I do give it a few minutes of easy running/idling to help cool down the exhaust and turbo (habit from turbo cars) before I turn it off. Once off, if I don't restart it within a minute or so... it will not want to start. It will just crank and crank and crank and not even sound like it's catching at all. It feels to me like it might be a heat soaking problem.

    I'd let the ski cool down with seat off and 20 minutes later it started right up. The next time it happened... the ski couldn't have been off for more than 90 seconds or so... I was loading up a passenger... and it wouldn't start. I cranked it pretty long and it finally "caught" and started and idled like normal... and ran perfectly fine as it had all day. At the end of the day I parked it, seat off, for a couple hours or so. When I went to start it so I could idle over to the boat launch and put it back on the trailer... it would not start. And it wasn't even hot anymore. That really stumped me. So I used my SLT to pull it over to the launch to load it on the trailer (haha). 5 minutes later, the ski and trailer are in my garage. I hit the starter just to see what it'd do and it immediately started right up without any cranking. So that would imply something to do with the load on the pump... in vs out of the water.

    Could it be the battery? I know it has to have 10.5 volts while cranking for the fuel system to work. And it does sound like a no fuel no start issue. The battery is a 325CCA AGM... brand new. But I have done some cranking on it in the past few days (priming oil system w/ plugs out). Plus all the cranking I did today when it wouldn't start when hot.

    I'm going to recharge the battery while I change my break-in fluids (oil&filter and replace distilled water for 50/50 pink coolant)... and be ready with a multimeter next time out to read the battery if this hot restart issue happens again.

    Anyone else ever contend with this issue?
    Cheers!


  2. #2
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosh View Post
    Congratulations, now you are a fully fledged MSX owner (now you have ridden it as well as owned it) ha ha
    You will now enjoy years of trouble free operation, just don't get to concerned if it does not use enough fuel, these are really good compared to most.

    Hot start problem! I have an untested theory. I have not seen or heard reports of this problem when running a standard wet cell battery, just a theory.

    I have an AGM and have this problem intermittently. The Deka that does fit without modification is I believe it is borderline CCA when comined with heat, drag from water on the impeller, the way the tide is running! To keep the voltage at the minimum required for injection.

    The next size up requires battery requires compartment modification. I need to take the original 08 battery out of the Yamaha and try it!! One day.
    ** copied post about restart troubles to this discussion thread

  3. #3
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Glad to hear that you like the machine!

    That no restart issue might be the battery, but it also might be something electronic, like a control module that is marginal.

    I am not deeply knowledgeable on the Weber engines but I seem to recall there are one or two modules that can have odd symptoms.

    ** copied post about restart troubles to this discussion thread

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripcuda View Post
    ** copied post about restart troubles to this discussion thread
    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Ph2ocraft Al did install a larger battery in his high high compression 2-stroke Matrix. He trimmed the existing battery box foam to fit the larger battery.

    That machine is now owned by Pirate33 and he posted a photo of the modified battery box;
    http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/show...=1#post1345138

    Elsewhere Ph2ocraft did post more details on how he did the battery upgrade.

    That said, I have a hard time believing that a Deka AGM battery is not delivering more voltage during cranking than a traditional lead acid battery. If there is a voltage sag during hot re-starts then something is not up to par, I would think.

    Even 'new' batteries can be less than 100% strong; it happens.

    It is easy enough to put an accurate volt meter on the battery posts and measure voltage while cranking. Then check voltage drops elsewhere if the battery voltage is sufficient.

    I have not seen an absolute minimum voltage spec for starting the Weber engines. The 10.6 volt minimum while cranking comes from the domestic Polaris 2-stroke carburetor engines, where the CDI module won't provide spark below this minimum voltage.

    In general I would expect a healthy AGM battery to deliver more than 11.0 volts while cranking. And I would expect the Weber engine to be happy with that.
    Repost

  5. #5
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    That's an interesting theory Kosh.

    It does feel like an issue with not getting fuel. Back the other day when I first tried to start my engine for the first time (still in the garage)... I had forgotten to plug in the fuel pump connector so the fuel pump was not running. And I was cranking it trying to start it a bunch (until I figured out the connector issue). Cranking it yesterday on hot restarts in the lake "felt" the same. Which leads me to think it's a fueling issue. And the fact that our engine is sensitive to proper voltage when cranking for the fuel injection system to run... points a big finger at the battery.

    I wonder if the battery sitting in it's spot fully encased by foam (except top) leads to excess heat build-up in the battery.

    If I had a lead/acid battery, I'd test your theory... but I just got all new AGM's for my 3 skis this year. I do have a small lawn and garden battery... maybe it will fit?

  6. #6
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    In my book AGM is the all around better battery technology. Compared to lead-acid A healthy AGM battery should deliver more amps with more voltage, hot or cold.

    AGM is highly resistant to vibration and I certainly hope it can withstand whatever modest amount of heat the battery is exposed to.

    All that said, put your AGM battery on a proper AGM compatible charger and see how much juice it needs to become fully recharged.

    I would also suggest you confirm that your watercraft is indeed putting out the proper charging voltage when the engine is running. Should be right around 14.5 volts, give or take.

  7. #7
    Kosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    In my book AGM is the all around better battery technology. Compared to lead-acid A healthy AGM battery should deliver more amps with more voltage, hot or cold.

    AGM is highly resistant to vibration and I certainly hope it can withstand whatever modest amount of heat the battery is exposed to.

    All that said, put your AGM battery on a proper AGM compatible charger and see how much juice it needs to become fully recharged.

    I would also suggest you confirm that your watercraft is indeed putting out the proper charging voltage when the engine is running. Should be right around 14.5 volts, give or take.
    I agree,

    Something is up though.

    Ripcuda, last time this happened to me I partially lifted the rear of the ski clear of the water and ... instant start up!

    Here are the recommended battery specifications

    Battery Type YB16CL--B
    Voltage 12 Volts
    Nominal Capacity @ 10 Hour Rate 19 AH
    Filling Specific Gravity 1.265 .010 @ 77F (25C)
    Fully Charged Specific Gravity 1.280 .010 @ 77F (25C)
    CCA @ 0F (--18C) 240 AMPS
    Recommended Charging Current 1.9 AMPS
    Electrolyte Volume 41.0 oz.
    Reserve Capacity 25 minutes
    Charging System 3 Phase Alternator w/external voltage regulator.
    Alternator Output Voltage (No Load)
    1200 RPM
    2500 RPM
    5000 RPM
    21.3 Vac
    43.5 Vac
    87.0 Vac
    Alternator Coil Resistance
    @87_F (37_C)
    @ 248_F (120_C)
    285 mΩ
    385 mΩ
    Alternator Output
    1200 RPM
    2500 RPM
    5000 RPM
    10 AMPS
    20 AMPS
    25 AMPS
    Nominal Voltage 12 Vdc
    Nominal Current 25 -- 30 AMPS
    Maximum Electrical Power 350 Watts @ 5000 RPM
    Regulated Voltage 14.3 -- 14.6 Vdc
    Minimum Voltage w/charged battery: 14.1 Vdc
    Starter Motor Draw
    No Load
    Load
    Stalled
    45A / 10.9 Vdc
    120A / 9 Vdc
    390A / 2.25 Vdc


    Here is the info I found on the Deka, it reads better


    CAP. 19 AH(10 HR)
    AMP CCA @ 0F (-18C) 275

    The ext16 info has the same 19 ah @ 10 hours and a Higher 275cca so reading the date should be superior. I could not find any information on reserve capacity, is the old lead acid better in this situation?
    Maybe a battery engineer may be able to help?
    ETX16 {74, 77} 19 67⁄8 4 61⁄8 # 175 100 155 # 17.0 14 N/A 4.0 275

  8. #8
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    I worked more on my ski today. It immediately starts up cold on the trailer in my garage still. I changed the break-in oil out for some new Mobil1 15w-50, and drained out the distilled water I was running for coolant during break-in and put in 50/50 pink stuff. I had to crank on the battery more today for the oil change so I have it on a charger and will top it up. Ski goes back in the lake tomorrow for more fun and testing. I'll be recording standing battery volts, cranking volt and running volts. And if the hot start issue returns, I'll be checking cranking volts then as well as pulling the injector rail to see if any fuel is spraying while cranking. That's my plan for now.

    Say Kosh... curious you mentioned lifting the back end and it starting. I was reading some other 4-stroke ski hard start threads I searched for and one in particular mentioned water backing up in the exhaust and causing a hard start issue. So if you were on the trailer or lifted the rear up and the exhaust drained out... it would start. Still not sure if that would be the water in the exhaust or the water in the jet pump. Seems the load on the pump would be a bigger drag on the engine than a plugged exhaust. Interesting... thanks for sharing.

    I'll let you guys know what I learn.
    Cheers!

  9. #9
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Well I put my 2 month old AGM "Extreme" 325 CCA battery on the charger and topped it off. Didn't take much charge before reading "full". Reads 13.08 vdc.

    Back on the water today with my MSX150 and not one hot re-start issue. I tried 5 different times to shut it down and let it sit after some good runs... but I'm happy to say it fired right up each time. Perhaps it was just the battery. It also wasn't as hot today as it was a few days ago when I had this issue.

    I'll be keeping close watch on this issue the rest of this season. If I experience this issue again, I'll be grabbing my multimeter for some readings.
    Here's to hoping I don't!
    Cheers!

  10. #10
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    I know this says that the 01- 04's are wired differently, but the dealership may have screwed something up while fudging around with it, could this be something to check? From the knowledge base:


    Service Bulletin PWC-00-05 (Fixes no restart when warm, no restart after stopping)
    Move CDI Red/Purple wire to Orange terminal for reliable engine restarts
    How to do Service Bulletin PWC-00-05 (CDI Red/Purple to Orange) Fix no-warm-restart
    Applies to all domestic engine carburetor Polaris PWC, two and three cylinder red engines 1996-2000 (and possibly some 2001)
    All later model red domestic carburetor engines through 2004 were wired this way from the factory.

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