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  1. #1

    Thumbs down My SBT engine with USED and DAMAGED parts in it

    Before I start this, let me just say the facts:

    The engine that I am talking about is a 6 year old engine with less than 70 hours on it.
    The engine had compression of 120psi across all cylinders
    The only visible damage to the engine was a blown oil seal on the PTO and a leak from the crank gasket.
    The engine was runing in the boat and in the water the day before it was taking out of the boat for repair.

    So now that we know that this was a working engine lets get into what my problem is.
    As many of my friends know, and some of the people here know I used to defend SBT against all the bad publicity. People say they sell junk, that they sell used parts, that they do rebuild their engines 100% and that the quality of their part does not meet standars. I always believed in them because I WAS a happy customer. I got an engine from them back in 2006 for my boat. A 2001 LS 2000. That year I was able to do the break in of the engine and no much more because my son was born.

    The next couple of years the boat sat in the garage and I would turn it on with the hose like once a month. I will also take it to Elliot key a couple of time in the summer. Elliot is a 30 ride with bad seas. We would spend a couple of hours there relaxing, and come back. So in all the boat most have about 50 hours at the most. Now to the reason of the thread. The blown oil seal can be blamed in a 6 year old engine. The gasket in the crank can also be blamed on the time that the boat sat on the garage. But now I opened the engine to fix the seals and I found USED parts on it. I tried (before creating this post) talking to SBT and letting them know of my finds. Jeremy basically just told me that they do not use used parts and indirectly called me a liar. Well I have proof! I have pictures of the engine, and I will show that the part was used. The part in question is a sleeve. The sleeve have damage that was present before they bored the sleeve, and that you can see by the curvature of the line where the boreing process finishes. Not to mention that a sleeve bored to 1mm over ussually means they are reusing parts. Now will the damage make the engine fail in the future, probably not but the point is that I was sold someting with a used part in it that as per SBT policy should not have been and not only that the part had damage on it. I will never ever recomend SBT to anybody else and will make sure to provide other companies to do business with that will have better reputation than SBT. When I got my engine from them they were the best. Now they are the worst and I see why. You do wrong by your customer, and no matter how nice and polite your CS people are at the end the customer did not get what they needed. I did not asked for a new engine. I asked for help on the repair cost and I did it this way:

    "I would like to get something free (This could have been the oil seal kit $19.00 my cost) for you to show me that you value me
    as a customer, and then I would like to get a big discount (20% would have been enough) in the items
    that you cannot give me for free. Keep in mind that I need to replace
    the sleeve bore it and hone it. Get a new piston and replace all the
    gaskets in the engine for final assembly. "
    Please let me know what you can do.

    Here everyone is an adult and I hope that we do not turn this thread into a circus. I am only doing this to inform the new potential SBT customers to stay away from them. Do a bit more reasearch and find someone else that will offer the same 2 year no fault warranty and that they are more reliable.

    Here are the pictures of the sleeve in question;
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  2. #2
    Carlos called saying that he had an issue with an engine. He did not provide us with a serial number or when he purchased it. SBT searched our records and the only engine purchase we could find from Carlos is from 6/15/2006. We communicated this invoice number to Carlos as the only one which he had purchased from us.
    He sent us this picture of a damaged sleeve that he claims is ours and he claims must have been a used sleeve that was in the 6 year old engine before it was shipped:



    His communication to us:

    8/22/12 Email received:

    "Hello Jeremy,



    This is the picture of the sleeve that i told you about on the phone. The engine blew the 2 oil gasket on the PTO and I had to take it appart to fix the seals. When I did I found that the parts that were on my engine were not new. The sleeve shows that it had that piece missing since it was put on the engine. You can see that when it was bored to 1 over the curve of the metal changes. I have always talked good about you guys and my experience with you, so before going to a forum and start a thread that is going to end up hurting us both I rather come to you and see what you guys can do for me. After reviewing the engine here is the damage the I have: both oil seals are blown, and one of the rings failed and broke in half so the piston is trashed. I have no idea how it did not damage the sleeve walls, but it did not. So here is what I would like to see as a loyal customer.

    I would like to get something free for you to show me that you value me as a customer, and then I would like to get a big discount in the items that you cannot give me for free. Keep in mind that I need to replace the sleeve bore it and hone it. Get a new piston and replace all the gaskets in the engine for final assembly.

    Please let me know what you can do.

    PS: here is the invoice number that you asked me to include #467419"



    8/22/12 SBT Response

    Carlos,



    - Every motor we sleeve has brand new sleeves installed during the production process.

    - From your picture, it appears the sleeve is bent in from something hitting it. I would check your rod that goes with that cylinder and look for an impact mark, most likely you will find damage that matches this sleeve damage.

    - If the engine left SBT in this condition, it would have broken the piston immediately. The invoice number you sent us is from 2006. We cannot reconcile that gap and the damage in the picture.



    We appreciate your business and certainly stand behind our engines, but this seems to be damage from external impacts on a 6 years old engine so unfortunately we would not replace the parts.



    8/28/12 Carlos Response

    "Ok thank you for really trying to help. I think It would have been cheapper to help me but at the end is your call I provided proof and you ignored it and indirectly called me a liar. I will never defend you again, as I am a person of principle and I know that I am saying the truth. I am pretty sure I am pretty sure that I will cost you more than the parts that you should replace. I know I will not run you out of business but I know I will stop a lot of people from doing business with you. The pictures that I sent you are going in the forums where most people come for advice and help and I will make sure that they know what your company did.

    Have a nice day

    Carlos "



    8/28/12 SBT Final Email to Carlos

    Carlos:



    SBT has been very civil with you, trying to explain our side of a situation that is murky at best. If you take a step back and viewed it from SBT's perspective:



    · A customer sends you a note saying you build crappy engines, you use used parts, and THEN demands free parts.

    · When you look up the transaction, it is from 2006, 6 years ago.

    · The engine has been apart, out of your hands, and you have no idea what had happened to it in that time, but you are expected to just replace any parts that are demanded.



    For this example, you expect SBT to just replace whatever parts you think you deserve. If you bought a TV, and 4 years out of warranty sent the manufacturer a note saying "My TV failed for another reason, but I think you use substandard parts and demand you replace my TV" what response would you expect? Would you even receive a response?



    SBT has taken the time to review the information you sent, look to see if it at all feasible that a) we sent this out in this condition and b) this caused the failure. We can conclude neither. So we have explained our position and the reasoning behind it. For that effort, your response is to threaten us with a smear campaign.

  3. #3
    Latest email from Carlos:
    I am sorry I am a man of principle and that is something that I cannot say about SBT. Your records should show that the engine was done with pistons that are 1mm over and you can see that the parts have your stamp on it. I am not a liar as you keep trying to make me sound. I have proof and you decided to ignore it. I am sorry that it has to come to this. I believe in not creating harm to others unless harm been done to me first. By you indirectly calling me a liar and telling me that the situation is merky at best makes me angry and it does not help your cause with me. You and the SBT team already took the decision of not helping me. Well now since I know that what I am saying is 100% the thruth I will be warning others about what they could or could not find inside one of your engines. They might chose to go with you and have no problem but at least it would not be my fault when something bad happens to them with their engine. By the way you keep saying free parts. Read the email again and you would see that I gave you a list of parts and you could have chossen to provide me with the least expensive part for free and then give me a discount on the rest of the parts but you decided not to do it. I tried to work with you because I know what I am asking and I know that its been 6 years. This tells me that you did not shared the email with your managment. because any good manager would have comeback with an offer like: I will give you the oil seal kit ($19.00 in your website) for free and give you 20% to 40% discount on the rest of the parts that you need with free shipping and the problem would have gone away. Now I am sure that by my recomendation you will loose a lot more that a couple of bucks. So again I am really sorry It had to come to this. You have all my information and you know how to reach me.

    Carlos Cameselle
    PS:
    You are wrong on this too:

    "The engine has been apart, out of your hands, and you have no idea what had happened to it in that time, but you are expected to just replace any parts that are demanded."

    I do all the work in my boat, The engine was installed by me in 2006. I do all the work in my engines and when I had to take it out it was opened by me and it is stting on my work bench to be repaired by me. It never left my house. This is why I am 100% sure that the damage was there before.

  4. #4
    Jeremy you are not helping your cause witht he emails so to help do that a bit more let me post the one that I just sent you:

    I am sorry I am a man of principle and that is something that I cannot say about SBT. Your records should show that the engine was done with pistons that are 1mm over and you can see that the parts have your stamp on it. I am not a liar as you keep trying to make me sound. I have proof and you decided to ignore it. I am sorry that it has to come to this. I believe in not creating harm to others unless harm been done to me first. By you indirectly calling me a liar and telling me that the situation is merky at best makes me angry and it does not help your cause with me. You and the SBT team already took the decision of not helping me. Well now since I know that what I am saying is 100% the thruth I will be warning others about what they could or could not find inside one of your engines. They might chose to go with you and have no problem but at least it would not be my fault when something bad happens to them with their engine. By the way you keep saying free parts. Read the email again and you would see that I gave you a list of parts and you could have chossen to provide me with the least expensive part for free and then give me a discount on the rest of the parts but you decided not to do it. I tried to work with you because I know what I am asking and I know that its been 6 years. This tells me that you did not shared the email with your managment. because any good manager would have comeback with an offer like: I will give you the oil seal kit ($19.00 in your website) for free and give you 20% to 40% discount on the rest of the parts that you need with free shipping and the problem would have gone away. Now I am sure that by my recomendation you will loose a lot more that a couple of bucks. So again I am really sorry It had to come to this. You have all my information and you know how to reach me.

    Carlos Cameselle
    PS:
    You are wrong on this too:

    "The engine has been apart, out of your hands, and you have no idea what had happened to it in that time, but you are expected to just replace any parts that are demanded."

    I do all the work in my boat, The engine was installed by me in 2006. I do all the work in my engines and when I had to take it out it was opened by me and it is stting on my work bench to be repaired by me. It never left my house. This is why I am 100% sure that the damage was there before.[/B]

  5. #5
    Guidoo's Avatar
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    If that cylinder is not cracked or out of round... Run it. If it was going to fail it would have hours ago. I've seen a hell of a lot worse in dirt bikes. That lil' nick,might loose a few ounces of torque.

  6. #6
    Jeremy, Like I said before and I keep repeating. I am a person of principle, and I am an honest guy. Your company says on their website the same thing that you said in your emails. SBT uses all new parts. I understand that if a sleeve is usable you can just bore it tot he next size over and use it. Is it new? NO! would it work like new? Yes! I am not blaming the oil seal in the sleeve being like that. Alll that I am saying is the sleeve in my engine had damage and SBT did not change it. Is that going to make my engine fail? some will say yes some will say no. In my experience is NO!. Al that I am saying is I had to open the engine because the oil seal failed after 6 years. Not your fault, and not my fault. Are we clear on that? Now the engine did not failed wile on the water. It had 120 psi before pulling the engine so I was not expecting any surprises. Once I took it apart I found what is in the emails. The parts were damage and used and that was done in the SBT factory. How do I know, well the engine has all SBT parts. The boreing is still at 1 over and the pistons are 1 over so the boreing that was done in that engine was not done by anyone but you. If you had told me when I bought the engine that it was going to have some used parts in it that meet the specs of Yamaha I would have expected something else. You sell your engines as a used shell with everything else on it new including sleeves as stated in your email. That is not the case on my engine and that is the problem at hand.

  7. #7
    Chupacobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdcash12 View Post

    Carlos:



    SBT has been very civil with you, trying to explain our side of a situation that is murky at best. If you take a step back and viewed it from SBT's perspective:



    · A customer sends you a note saying you build crappy engines, you use used parts, and THEN demands free parts.

    · When you look up the transaction, it is from 2006, 6 years ago.

    · The engine has been apart, out of your hands, and you have no idea what had happened to it in that time, but you are expected to just replace any parts that are demanded.



    For this example, you expect SBT to just replace whatever parts you think you deserve. If you bought a TV, and 4 years out of warranty sent the manufacturer a note saying "My TV failed for another reason, but I think you use substandard parts and demand you replace my TV" what response would you expect? Would you even receive a response?



    SBT has taken the time to review the information you sent, look to see if it at all feasible that a) we sent this out in this condition and b) this caused the failure. We can conclude neither. So we have explained our position and the reasoning behind it. For that effort, your response is to threaten us with a smear campaign.
    I cant agree any more with this ^

    Lets say you just recently bought the engine and in only a few hours of operation it blew then you'll be in the right.

    After 6 years of owning the engine and running finally something went wrong then wanting free/discounted parts... Come on....

    I'm not trying to defend anyone, I could care less about SBT but this is ridiculous

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ScramblerKidd View Post
    If that cylinder is not cracked or out of round... Run it. If it was going to fail it would have hours ago. I've seen a hell of a lot worse in dirt bikes. That lil' nick,might loose a few ounces of torque.
    I know it won't fail It is a principle thing. They DO sell engines with USED parts in them and that is what is in question. I have also seen worst than that and, actually its still running today.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chupacobra View Post
    I cant agree any more with this ^

    Lets say you just recently bought the engine and in only a few hours of operation it blew then you'll be in the right.

    After 6 years of owning the engine and running finally something went wrong then wanting free/discounted parts... Come on....

    I'm not trying to defend anyone, I could care less about SBT but this is ridiculous
    The funny thing is that I do care about SBT. Well I least I did :
    http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/show...156649&page=10

    And like this one you can find me defending them and talking good about them in all the forums. I am the type of guy the I know I am not perfect, and I own my mistakes. I just expect people to do the same. That is all it is simple.

  10. #10
    r33pwrd's Avatar
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    I would just be happy that a 2 stroke motor lasted 6 years... get over it and move on.

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