08-09-2013, 06:41 PM #1
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
2004 Polaris MSX 150 - no acceleration - no top end speed
2004 Polaris MSX 150 - Runs but will not accelerate - top speed upper 30s. Any ideas what I should do?
08-15-2013, 09:55 AM #2
Welcome to Green Hulk!
Gonna need more info about your MSX 150 to better point you towards the issue.
What's the history on the ski? New to you? Ever run properly?
What is the max RPMs you see on the display? (This can point to specific causes)
Was the ski rolled in the water?
Do a compression test on each cylinder and report your #s
08-17-2013, 10:32 AM #3
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
New ski to me. RPM 5300
Idles smooth, just no power. About 40 MPH
08-17-2013, 02:48 PM #4
Could be a boost leak. Check all your hoses and your Blow-off valve (BOV). A loose hose that slipped off or a cut/slice in a hose will let the boost out and the engine won't be able to make full power/boost/rpm/speed.
Do you hear a loud hissing or honking sound when you try to go full throttle?
It could also be a bad wastegate solenoid. If it's failed in the closed/unpowered state... then you won't get above ~6psi max boost... which when I've done it... is around 5300 RPMs... and about 40-ish mph. So... that could be a real possibility.
Are the boost lines from turbo > wastegate solenoid > wastegate actuator plumbed correct?
Do you have the original wastegate solenoid that is attached to the side of the turbo (by the airbox)... or the newer style attached to a bracket on the valve cover?
Lastly... I'd pull the plugs... check condition. Then do a compression test.
Report back what you find and we'll try to help.
08-17-2013, 04:24 PM #5
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Lakeville, MI
I'm kind of in the same boat so to speak..
Max rpm 6850.. in chop or glass 6850.. and taps 6900..
Added flat rubber washers to both map sensors, manifold map was leaking
thin metal there for sensor seal, that took me from 6800 to 6850 and touch
6900 once in awhile..
Checked all tube clamps.. double tightened..
guess i need to buy a boost selonoid, i read somewhere around here a way to test tjem.. I'll search again..
And for some unknown reason, i have lake splash all over battery..
water oil cyclone? Took hose off airbox so no oil enters intake.
No clue here
08-17-2013, 07:34 PM #6
Not sure your condition sounds like a wastegate (boost) solenoid. When they fail... it's either stuck in the powered position (venting out open port) where it'll overboost very quickly and the ECU will throw a check engine light and go into limp mode at 4800 rpms. Or it can fail in the unpowered position (venting to WG) where it always sends all boost pressure to the wastegate actuator and thus you won't get more than about 6psi boost. With only 6psi boost max... you'll get around 5200rpms and 40-42mph (indicated) max.
Now a boost leak... or a BOV lifting and venting some boost... could get you the results your seeing. Just down a tad from expected max. Do you hear any fluttering or honking noise at WOT? If so... BOV is going bad and that would be your cause. If not... and you've checked all the hoses and they are on, tight and have no tears/cuts in them... then time to look elsewhere.
I'd pull the plugs and run a compression test on both cylinders. It's possible you have Nicasil failure... and thus are down on compression and power in one or both cylinders.
Are you consuming coolant or oil? (have to keep topping them off?) Oil clear (not foamy... no moisture present in it?)? Any oil slick in top of coolant jug?
By lake splash... you mean you have water splashed over the battery area? Is the seal under the seat good? Is there water in the bottom of the hull. With enough water in there it could splash around and if deep enough could be slung around by the spinning driveshaft coupler. Careful you don't get water in the tiny hole on the oil separator (cyclone). That goes right into the oil system. If you've removed that recirc hose back to the airbox... what do you have connected to the cyclone in it's place? I've plumbed mine into a homemade oil catch can.
08-20-2013, 09:30 AM #7
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Lakeville, MI
good morning RipCuda..
oil cyclone just disconnected from airbox, no can trap, just pulled off of airbox
kind of thinking there should be vacuum to this cyclone thing
re-connecting today and testing compression..
i'll let you know..
as to water splash.. Sealed seating.. never had water splash in hull ever...
straight run with no wild turns at all.. i'm old so basically putz and sand bar for me, with a rip every now and then
to show up the new machines.. but that one hasn't been happening lately..
now.. i noticed my coolant is brown, not oil in it (pulled flushed and refilled) and brown again.. "?"
no water in oil (no milky, no moisture)
I know intercooler is oiled out..
intake tubes oiled with fresh oil change according to books.. My fault for Listening to Polaris..
correct now just touching dipstick..
Multiple days cleaning sensors..
when I got this 66 to 67 mph, down to 58-59 mph now.. regardless of how much fuel or chop or glass
slowly slowing down a mph each run out there in the lake..
added rubber seals to MAP sensors
found a good boost leak at bottom MAP, hence adding seals
so I'm reading somewhere here that a boost selonoid can stop swtching at 11psi
(using a bike pump to test pressures while tapping 12volts to selonoid listening for clicks as you raise pressure)
have not done this yet..
I ran on trailer in lake and hit 7850 rpm with no problem, noticing my wastegate arm only moved when releasing throttle
I did notice another thing here.. this motor Jumped Hard from 7050 to 7850 and I mean Power like just like power band on a dirtbike...
on water riding 6750 to 6800 rpm
Plenty of little issues here (hoping)
thank you all for any assistance here.. and hope this gives other pointers to look at with trn1977
08-20-2013, 11:11 AM #8
Can't say the oil separator works better with or without a suction on it (from recirc hose). I do know I have no problems with that hose removed and just connecting the separator (cyclone) into a homemade oil catch can. I also know that having that emissions recirc hose connected is the #1 cause for oil ingestion in these Weber engines. By your description "intercooler is oiled out" and "intake tubes oiled"... sounds like you suffered from the dreaded oil ingestion. Did you get the intercooler and all the intake pipes/hoses/manifold all cleaned out... getting all the oil out of them after this happened? Were either of the MAP sensors (usually the one in the hard pipe) coated in the oily mess? This can foul the sensors and they may not be able to be "cleaned"... most folks replace them.
As for splashed battery. Could be one of the freshwater hoses leaking/spraying under full pressure (full throttle)... leaking from either a connection or a cut/pierce in the hose. Carefully check the main freshwater supply hose (goes beside battery with small hose "Teed" that goes to the heat exchanger)... also check the short hose that comes off the heat exchanger and goes up to the oil tank (under the cyclone). Do you have a flush kit installed? If so, check it for leaks.
Brown coolant doesn't sound right. Are you loosing coolant?... having to keep topping off the jug? Could be a blown headgasket contaminating the coolant. But that usually consumes it too so you'd notice the level dropping. By brown... sounds like oil in the coolant. Oil and coolant cross paths at the oil cooler (under intercooler), the turbo center cartridge (could be a bad turbo) and in the engine (blown headgasket).
When the engine is out of the water.. there is no load on it... because the jetpump isn't moving any water. You are easily reving sky high on it and bouncing off the rev limiter doing that... which is not desirable. Sort of like removing the chain to the back wheel off a dirtbike... the engine will rev quicker and easier without a load. How it runs in the water is more important and telling.
First thing I'd do if you brought me your ski... would be to start it (in reverse on the trailer to limit RPMs to 3400 max) and idle it for 20 seconds. Check the oil level and check the coolant. Then pull the plugs and run a compression test. This test will tell you a lot about the engine's health. Do it. And report back your findings. You're looking for 125#-140# and even in both cylinders. If you a cylinder below 120#... it's likely Nicasil plating failure... or a blown headgasket. I'd do a leak-down test to diagnose more.
08-20-2013, 12:00 PM #9
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Lakeville, MI
ok.. this forum is cool.. posts are Fast around here..
trailer rpm test was Fully in water at the lake.. Never would do that to Anything without load..
although some children around here do..
no coolant loss, no oil loss.. just brown coolant.. all intakes clean (now) including sensors..
it was just slight clean oil.. not milky at all..
I agree- sprung a pinhole leak for water splash.. under cyclone probable, i'll look..
(garbage Harbor Freight unit)
Last time using to buy a ski it hit 96 96psi, didn't buy that ski..
This time on the MSX 96 96psi Both cylinders (freaken out ready to sell)
took it to my neighbor whom I am assisting with a seadoo rebuild.. we got 96psi and 96psi and WE Know for fact
this 787cc is at 148 149 psi
so a Junk gauge.. one thing positive here on my MSX.. holding release valve open, pressure hangs on both cylinders
almost posted my machine on craigslist.. phew..
So back to boost leak issues..
thinking that double washer fitting that looks like a brake line connection on a caliper might be leaking..
going to have to trailer in water test again idleing with a can of carb cleaner
what about my wastegate arm Not mooving at all till i let off throttle.?
because I read somewhere, that the ecu will pulse that selonoid to keep boost in check to peak rpm..
I am not getting any errors on the dash..
wish our dash would tell us under-boost detected, check for leaks.. or check selonoid..
never trust Harbor Freight made in china compression testers..
08-20-2013, 01:37 PM #10
Yeah... get or use a known good compression tester. Getting accurate readings are important. You're still on the stock block, right? Let's hope your Nicasil is still in good shape... terrible failure rate on these. I've seen 3 blocks... all three had Nicasil failure.
I've never run a ski in the water on the trailer. But it doesn't seem like it would replicate water riding the same. There is no weight to "move"... no friction plowing through the water... so it seems like the load on the pump would be less. And it has to suck the water into the intake instead of forward momentum helping forcing it in. That said... I'm not surprised you're getting different max RPM results on the trailer verses an actual water ride.
As for the wastegate actuator arm moving. If it is not seized... you can push it open and it springs shut... then I don't think that's your problem. The problem could be the wastegate solenoid that controls the actuator... but every time I've seen these fail... they get stuck in either the powered-state or unpowered-state. When stuck in the powered-state... it will overboost immediately upon going full throttle. This triggers a check-engine and a limp mode. No way to miss this one. When stuck in the unpowered-state... you can only reach a max boost of 6psi... which when running equates to ~5300rpms @ ~42mph. If your not experiencing one of these two states... then I don't think your wastegate is the problem. I don't recall... do you have the original or new updated style of wastegate solenoid?
If your top speed/rpms are just down a little from "normal"... then a boost leak seems more likely. I've had an intake hose pop off and my power and speed drop noticeably. But I didn't get any check-engine lights or warnings.
Also... if there are any leaks after the throttle body... TB gasket, MAP on side of intake, boost source banjo on side of intake, intake manifold o-rings... these will mess with air entering the engine at idle... and it will not idle smooth at 1500-1550. Idle will hunt or surge as the ECU tries to compensate for a leak. So if you don't have this issue... then you can focus looking for boost leaks between the turbo and TB.
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