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  1. #1

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    MSX 150 rpm limit around 5700

    This is actually a 14ft Sugar sand that I put together 2 years ago. It has a 2007 Weber 150 with the newer oil sump. It has been running fairly well, but has had intermittent power limits, especially when water gets splashed into the back on the swim deck. It has usually cleared itself out. My kids had it out and didn't have the sump pump on and it got really full of water. Once the water was pumped out it took a while before it would run, but now it's limited to about 5700rmp. I'm pretty sure one of the kids, or friends added oil at some point because they pull the dip stick and don't see oil.
    I've been reading all of the posts about oil recirc hose and MAP sensors, so I started to take things apart. It has an oil film on everything in the intake track and some milky oil residue in the hard pipe. There was also some water droplets inside. I pulled the air intake, intercooler, MAPs and hard intake pipe. I am going to make a catch can for the oil since reading all of the great information your all have posted on this forum.
    My question is how do I clean the intercooler, and do I need to remove the intake manifold to clean it out or can I remove the throttle body, & spray carb cleaner down inside to clean out most of the oil. Does it drain out of where the sensor goes on, or do you run rags down to suck up the residue? Or is it easier to just pull the intake, if so how does it disconnect from the heat exchanger. I ordered new MAP sensors today and hopefully will be able to get it running back to normal again.
    The last time I had it out for about 15 minutes up and down to 5700 rpm and then it went into limp mode. Idle at 1500 and it would go upto about 1800-1900 if I gave it throttle. Is this maybe due to the temp sensor on the upper MAP. There is a single wire that connects to the exhaust behind the turbo. Is that a temp sensor? It seems loose and some what oxidized.
    Thanks for any help you can provide me!


  2. #2
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Howdy! Sounds like a sweet boat. I have a Rio... With the 2stroke 1200 in it. I've tossed around the idea of a Weber in the boat and think it would be awesome!
    Is your boat a Sting? Did it come with the Weber in it?

    With all the room in there... Getting the engine pieces apart should be a breeze. All the intake tract can be cleaned with hot soapy water, rinsed well and dried well. Clean the IC the same. New MAPS should help. Get your oil level set correctly. If their is water in the oil... Drain, put in cheap oil, warm up to temps, drain again... Repeat until no more water in the oil. And get the level set correctly.

    That rpm limit could also point to over boost. Check your waste gate is not sticking or seized.

    Would love to see some pictures. How did you align the engine and the jet pump driveshaft?

    Cheers!

  3. #3

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    Thank for the help ripcuda. It is a Sting and the motor did come with the Weber. Well, kind of! Check out pictures in the link. It was a basket case when Sugar Sand went out of business. I had to assemble the whole boat, and drill/mount the pump. The basket of parts came with an alignment tool and I can't remember exactly what I did to align it but I was confident that it was right and it has been running great until the water infiltration into the intake It runs 55 on the dream meter and about 50 on the gps. My kids like to use it going tubing and playing. I actually like to take it out sometimes if I'm by myself instead of my big boat (28' Eliminator) because it's so easy to launch and run. It takes the big waves unbelievably good.
    There is no water in the oil and the level is about 1/4 on the bottom of dip stick. I took your advise and others from here and removed everything from the turbo to the head and cleaned it over the weekend. I also removed the air horn housing and cleaned it and cleaned the MAP sensors. The one on top was reading only 550 ohms on the temp instead of 2500, so I swapped the sensors. It's all back together but still runs the same. I ordered the 2 MAP sensors and they showed up today. OH, I also capped the oil vent to the air horn and built a catch can to run the oil tank vent to. Thanks to whoever posted this trick a few years ago on GREENHULK, this was not a good design.

    What should I do if it still runs 5700 after I change the 2 sensors is my next dilemma? I read one post about an O2 sensor maybe or maybe exhaust temp. If it got water in the exhaust I can see how the O2 would be bad. I might have to see if the local Polaris dealer has Digital Wrench to read & clear the codes. Is there anything I am missing or should/can test?

    http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/...g/DSC07514.jpg

    Again thanks for the help. Rockie

  4. #4

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    Wastegate? I'm not sure how to check that, but I can moved it against the spring pressure. It moves with quite a bit of pressure but feels smooth and what I think is normal. While driving now and backing off the throttle there is no sound of pressure release from it, so my guess is that it isn't going into boost, at least that's what it seems like. It does kind of search for idle somewhere between 1400-1700 on the tack

  5. #5
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Wow... talk about buying a project! Thanks for sharing the pictures. All the projects I buy are used, old and broken. It must have been fun assembling your own new boat!

    I didn't see one in the picture... do you have a digital display anywhere that shows a check engine, overheat, low batter or red flashing light or indicator?

    Your oil level sounds right. You have the new, improved oil tank and rollover tank (that's good!)... plus you removed the emissions oil separator to airbox (airhorn) hose so should have no worries about oil ingestion. Just gotta keep the water out of the intake.

    If your wastegate arm is moving... and springing back closed... it's not seized... another plus. So it's doubtful your overboosting.

    I'm really hoping a pair of new MAPs clears up your issues. If read a few reports of lingering running issues even after cleaning everything and installing new MAPs. I've read the ECU has wonky air temp readings stored in memory from the previous bad MAP sensors and that it takes a while of running (not quite right) for the ECU to overwrite them with good readings and then it runs properly again. Some folks have even had to send out their ECU to be reflashed back to stock... since I don't think Digital Wrench can do anything more than just clear fault codes. Hopefully you won't have these issues.

    Check your throttle body to intake manifold rubber boot for leaks. I've seen some issues there... not tight... pin hole. This will cause idling issues. Also, ensure all your intake tract hoses and clamps are tight too.

    Does your Sting have an electronic throttle (throttle by wire) like the MSX ski does? I'm guessing it does. Where does your throttle cable end? In a black box (Pedal Position Unit) that turns the cable pull into an electrical signal? Do you also have an SIFB module in your wiring harness (near the main relay on the ski)?

    Cheers!

  6. #6

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    It was fun starting with all new parts. It took a lot of hours but at least I didn't have to spend any time cleaning anything befor assembly. There is no digital display anywhere that shows a check engine, overheat, low battery or red flashing light or indicator, so I feel I'm shooting in the dark. You guy's are my best resource for this thing. It has the same PPU and ETB as the jet ski. It is mounted behind the drivers seat below the ECU, but you can't really see it in any of the pictures.

    Not sure what the SIFB module is. System Interface Bus to power down the ECU after stopping the engine? There is a small 2" x 2" module I tucked up high along with the wiring. I don't have a picture of it but I can get one when I go to change sensors. I have read about an overboost sensor, is that what I am replacing with the MAP sernsors? I had all of the rubber hoses, throttle body & boot off and didn't see any problems, other than I did replace one because it looked split on the end.
    Also can you tell me where the temp sensor is for the engine? I think the single wire one behind the turbo must be exhaust temp. I just want to test everything with a ohm meter so I have an idea where i'm at with it all. I wonder how long it will take for the ECU to learn that the errors are clear and start running properly again.
    Last edited by rockien; 09-09-2014 at 02:24 PM. Reason: update

  7. #7
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockien View Post
    ... There is no digital display anywhere that shows a check engine, overheat, low battery or red flashing light or indicator, so I feel I'm shooting in the dark...
    What indicators do you have for the engine? Any dash indicators at all?

    If you really have nothing then perhaps it would be worthwhile to wire up an NGI display from a Polaris MSX 110 or MSX 150.

    Actually, the MFI displays from Genesis or Virage might also work for you. The speedometer connection probably won't work, but the other signals are identical or very similar. At least you would have RPM, Check Engine and HOT indicators, even battery voltage.

    Polaris Fuel level signal is same as standard marine so that would read your tank level if there is a standard sender in there.

  8. #8
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Cool... sounds like you have all the same parts as the ski... minus the dash display. Should the engine start having issues and throwing trouble indicators... you'd be in the dark... bummer. But we can't read the stored trouble codes anyways... without the Dealer-only Digital Wrench.

    So the MAP sensors main job is to read boost pressure and turn it into an electrical signal for the ECU. These detect overboost as well. The secondary job of the MAP is the inlet air temp... only read from the hardpipe MAP. Tells ECU incoming air temps which affect fueling. Intake manifold MAP is boost only (thus 3 wires on it's connector... 4 wires on the hardpipe connector).

    The engine temperature sensor is in the coolant rail... between the intake manifold runners. This tells ECU the engine temp. There is also an exhaust manifold over-temp switch (rear side of exhaust manifold). This grounds the single wire to it when the exhaust manifold gets too hot (lack of freshwater cooling). You can unplug this over-temp switch and the ECU will think is all fine... but you loose this protection. So, I'd unplug it for testing... but keep it hooked up for normal operation.

    All your described symptoms sound like the common oil ingestion/water in the oil troubles that are too common on the Weber engine. You now have it all cleaned out... and hopefully the new MAPs will get you back to running properly again.

    See the factory service manual for meter checks on the various engine sensors.

    Cheers!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rockien View Post
    ... There is no digital display anywhere that shows a check engine, overheat, low battery or red flashing light or indicator, so I feel I'm shooting in the dark...
    What indicators do you have for the engine? Any dash indicators at all?

    If you really have nothing then perhaps it would be worthwhile to wire up an NGI display from a Polaris MSX 110 or MSX 150.

    Actually, the MFI displays from Genesis or Virage might also work for you. The speedometer connection probably won't work, but the other signals are identical or very similar. At least you would have RPM, Check Engine and HOT indicators, even battery voltage.

    Polaris Fuel level signal is same as standard marine so that would read your tank level if there is a standard sender in there.
    Thanks for the input guys!
    The only indication I have is tack, speed and fuel level. It would be nice to get a NGI display and wire it in. I might have to keep an eye out on ebay for one. I'm pretty sure all the wiring is in place to connect it. Heck I even have another complete wiring harness that came with the boat.
    I did fix the water in the bilge problem. I moved the float and pump to the rear of the hull and wired the float directly to the battery via a fuse, and just wired the dash switch the pump for manual operation. I'll have to see how it does after I get the new sensors installed this weekend.

  10. #10
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockien View Post
    ... I did fix the water in the bilge problem. I moved the float and pump to the rear of the hull and wired the float directly to the battery via a fuse, and just wired the dash switch the pump for manual operation...
    Did you correct the cause of the water leak or just make the bilge pump work better?

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