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  1. #1
    hill160881's Avatar
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    Msx 150 complete overhaul and full upgrade.

    Thread under construction. Please don't post. I will be combining all my threads on the weber powered msx.

    The purpose of this thread is for me to document all the downfalls that can be fixed when rebuilding an msx150. Also to provide feedback as some of the components used in this build are prototypes. I will also provide all sources I used to source parts.

    Please don't reply to this thread unless I make a mistake that needs corrected!

    I will cover the necessary items that must be addressed when doing a basic rebuild and the possible options if you want a bulet proof engine or more power.

    The mechanical shortfalls from the factory. All manufactures of pwc have issues that crop up and most of these are fixed in following years. Since the weber powered msx was the last pwc polaris made it is up to the owner to fix these issues. Up front I will tell you these engines are expensive to rebuild.

    The issues
    -The water pump gear is plastic and is a common failure at any hour. The solution is to replace it with a metal one. This requires a new balancing shaft as well. Parts can be found from Weberpower.com.
    -The stock metal dry sump oil tank is defective and needs replaced. Replacement kit available from Weberpower.com
    -The plating on the cylinder walls is known to flake off. This is solved by sleeving the block or a new nickaseal plating. Both can be sourced at Weberpower.com


    Stock parts.
    -Turbo, the turbo is not the longest lasting and should be rebuilt by a professional shop for proper balancing.
    -You can use the stock pistons. They are forged and can handle more than the block if the engine is properly tuned.
    -Replace the timming chain tensioner.
    -The rods are good for a stock rebuild.
    -The stock valve springs are fine and can be shimmed with a kit from weberpower.com to prevent valve float.
    -The dry sump oil pump is usually reusable.
    -Replace the HP oil pump when rebuilding the engine


    Now that we are done with the things that NEED to be replaced when doing a basic rebuild lets discuss the design shortfalls. Look at the cylinder. Notice how the cylinder is not supported at the top? Supporting this area will add to engine longevity and also allow for more power.



    There are two different types of sleeves for the stock boar. One type is an insert and does nothing to support the upper part of the cylinder. The other looks like this and is fully supported against the block walls. There is also an 850 big boar in this configuration. This type of reinforcement is not necessary for a stock rebuild.
    Last edited by hill160881; 09-24-2014 at 02:09 PM.


  2. #2
    hill160881's Avatar
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    -Engine alignment and why it's important:
    Because this engine has nothing to prevent its crank shaft from being pushed forward and back the shaft alignment is crucial. A misalignment can cause premature bearing ware on the main bearings and crank damage. Proper alignment requires an alignment tool and a crank shaft adaptor. Both available at weberpower.com The alignment instructions are in the service manual.

    -Electric issues and engine management.
    The original Bosch ecu is programed to agressive for the fuel available on the water in the usa. It is to rich and has to much advance at low rpms. There are only two options. #1, and the cheapest, is a re-flash from Martin at precisionsports in Canada.
    http://www.precisionsports.ca/en/cat...4dd99ae7ea7483
    The other is new engine management from an aftermarket source. weberpower.com carries a plug and play standalone system from AEM.

    -Jet pump

    -Through hull

    -Handeling upgrades

    -Trouble shooting
    -SIFB failure diagnosis:
    Symptoms of a defective SIFB module are....

    -Wastage issues:
    Symptoms of a frozen or sticky waste gate are.....

    -Check engine lights and what the different RPM limits means:

    -Overheat light and possible causes:

    -Oil pressure light:

    -Oil level and oil ingestion:

    -PPU and fly by wire throttle:

    Which oil to use.
    So this is the question. I have been in hp cars my whole life and had many different opinions.

    One was change it often and use a non synthetic. The other is chance it almost as often and use a synthetic.

    Now first I want to make sure you understand there are three levels of synthetic in the usa. Group 3, 4 and 5. Group 3 is not synthetic oil but really just prime stock hydrocracked crude. The group 4 and 5 oils are real synthetics and man made.

    After I got interested in this I decided to see what the differences were between a simi synthetic 15w 50 vs the mobil one 15w 50. What you are looking for are the additives.

    The mobil one is a true group 4 synthetic. It is what is recommended by weber.
    Silicone 9ppm
    Boron 228ppm
    sodium 13ppm
    magnesium 43ppm
    calcium 2464ppm
    Phosphorous 1193ppm
    Zink 1315ppm
    Molybdenum 90ppm
    To be honest it is good but does not have as much zink or moly as I have seen in other hp synthetic engine oils. It reminds me of old school oil a bit.

    Mystic 15w 50 simi synthetic. I have been using this and that is why I chose it. It is a class 3 mixed with class 2 base stock.

    Magnesium 1060
    Calcium 1220
    Ph 1050
    Zink 1280
    After looking into it i feel the mystic is to low in zink and has no molybdenum. These additives are essential for high rpm high output engines to prevent damage to roller bearings and any metal to metal surfaces. Also after learning the synthetic blends have no group 4 properties I will no longer use it.

    The thermal properties between the two are only relevant if you dont change your oil enough.

    So this is why you only use the good stuff. In America the oil companies are allowed to call an extra refined standard oil, group 3, a synthetic when its not man made at all. A synthetic blend is an unknown ratio of group 3 and group 2 oils mixed together. So neither is even close to a group 4 like mobil one 15w 50.

    Hope this helps educate people on the way oil companies lie to stupid americans
    Last edited by hill160881; 10-22-2014 at 01:31 AM.

  3. #3
    PWC Addict lilman573's Avatar
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    Hill, just re-looking at this. Isn't the reason it isn't supported because it was a cooling jacket? Were they able to get rid of this on the other motors because they were aided in being air cooled? Since you have taken alot of the cooling jacket away, will that effect the motor as far as heat soak goes?

  4. #4
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    This sleeve doesn't fill the entire coolant passage around the cylinder. It only flairs out at top to connect the sleeve to the main block (so it's not floating) for strength. The coolant passage is still all around the sleeve/cylinder in the block and there is now dedicated openings in the top where the coolant flows into the head.

    The other applications of the Weber MPE750... such as Hydrospace... are all fluid cooled also. Some are closed loop coolant systems (like MSX), some are open loop coolant systems (like Hydrospace).

    Cheers!

  5. #5
    hill160881's Avatar
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    Rip has it correct.

    Also they made the water passages smaller to bring the head temp up to improve atomization of the fuel. The weber engine runs to cold on the top end.

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    Why the stock metal dry sump oil tank is defective?

  7. #7
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony2k View Post
    Why the stock metal dry sump oil tank is defective?
    The stock metal round oil tank has some issues.
    - The internal lower baffle commonly comes free and bounces around in the oil tank... increasing oil agitation/foaming.

    - The water jacket on the tank semi-commonly develops leaks, leaking fresh water into the oil chamber of the tank. Water and oil should never mix. The leak develops at the tank bottom-to-top seam where a large O-ring is supposed to keep them sealed.

    - There is no rollover protection with the stock tank. The updated oil tank kit comes with an external, small rollover tank. Plus the oil separator (cyclone) is redesigned and improved on the updated tank.

    Cheers!

  8. #8

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    Last edited by Tony2k; 03-20-2015 at 10:08 AM.

  9. #9
    ripcuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony2k View Post
    No. That is the oil tank for the new MPE850.

    If you have an MSX 110 or MSX 150, with the Weber MPE750, you want this:
    http://www.weberpower.com/parts-weber-oil-tank-update-kit.html


    The tank isn't a direct replacement. There are different hoses and mounts. The kit has everything you need to swap the old with the new upgraded.

    Cheers!

  10. #10

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    OMG, a huge price difference for a little reservoir and a pair of hose more! Why Hydrospace don't use the same upgraded tank?

    Here you can see the parts:


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