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  1. #1
    jajardas's Avatar
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    Ficht EMM?? MSX/VIRAGE

    Are the EMM the same for the Ficht engines?
    I know that the MSX has a larger bore size so it would need more fuel but can you swap out a good EMM from a MSX to a Virage DI just for testing/troubleshooting?

    The two wiring diagrams looked the same but the MFI/NGI.

    JJ


  2. #2
    PWC Addict lilman573's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jajardas View Post
    Are the EMM the same for the Ficht engines?
    I know that the MSX has a larger bore size so it would need more fuel but can you swap out a good EMM from a MSX to a Virage DI just for testing/troubleshooting?

    The two wiring diagrams looked the same but the MFI/NGI.

    JJ
    A Virage i EMM is a two cylinder machine so that's a definite no. A Virage TXi is the 1200 motor and might be possible....?

  3. #3
    jajardas's Avatar
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    Good Point. It is a 2001 Virage TX with the 3 cylinder Ficht DI 1200 engine.

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Arrow Swapping and interchanging three cylinder Polaris Ficht EMM for testing purposes

    Quote Originally Posted by jajardas View Post
    ... It is a 2001 Virage TX with the 3 cylinder Ficht DI 1200 engine.
    For testing? Depends what kind of testing you be doing.

    If you just want to see the engine start and idle, no problem with using a mismatched (three cylinder) EMM. If you want to go zooming around the lake at hull planing speeds, then you may have risks.

    Certainly the MSX 140 EMM will plug into and run any of the red three cylinder Ficht engine. The electrical connections are all the same, as far as I know.

    If the injectors are not swapped over then the engine may run somewhat lean on one or more cylinders, all depends on how mismatched the MSX 140 EMM configuration is compared to the compensation requirements for the actual injectors

    I would want to also install the matching injectors for the MSX 140 EMM.

    The 1999 Genesis is a special case so using the proper MSX 140 injectors is highly recommended.

    The throttle bodies and TPS also differ slightly. The engine will start and run, but be aware the air flow and TPS position signal calibrations are slightly different between MSX 140 and the red engines, especially the older red Ficht models.

    The cylinder porting is also different on the 1165cc red engines compared to the 1192cc MSX 140. This means the air flow through the engine is different.

    Engine load from the impeller also differs depending on the hull. A Genesis hull has a different drag profile than a Virage or MSX hull.

    Exhaust flow also varies with models. The MSX 140 exhaust manifold and pipe is different from the Genesis or Virage, and the Genesis/Virage exhaust manifold casting was even changed in that last couple of production years.

    Each EMM version is calibrated to match the specific characteristics of the engine, exhaust, impeller and hull it was originally sold with.

    I simply do not have enough information to say with any confidence how much each of the above factors matters or how much aggregate difference there is.

    I would expect that using a Genesis EMM on a Virage is mostly straightforward, since the Genesis EMM is calibrated for the higher drag of the Genesis hull.

    If the problem you are diagnosing is simply weak voltage to the Fuel Injectors on White/Red wires, it is completely acceptable to piggy back the 'spare' EMM next to the working EMM and swap over just the 8 and 12 pin Deutsch connectors. Leave the big 40-pin EMM connector with the original EMM. The two smaller connectors are the 'power section' of the EMM which is quite separate internally from the EMM 'computer' section

  5. #5
    jajardas's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info.

    I just picked up the 2001 virage TX and the PO said the engine was locked up but I changed the starter and it turns over. I have all the injectors off, heads loose and plugs out. I did manage to get the MFI to display because the fuse was blown but need to get the correct one. Only put waht I had in the tool box to see if it would display. I did not have the CPS in yesterday when I was cranking it so I did not see the RPM's. I am going to take it off the MSX after I go through the Ficth stator test procedure. One odd thing I did not have any fuel coming out of the supply line when it was cranking. So I will have to troubleshoot the fuel pump also.

    Thanks for the continued info and I will update as I go.

    JJ

  6. #6
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jajardas View Post
    ... 2001 virage TX ... I changed the starter and it turns over.

    I have all the injectors off, heads loose and plugs out. I did manage to get the MFI to display because the fuse was blown but need to get the correct one. Only put waht I had in the tool box to see if it would display. I did not have the CPS in yesterday when I was cranking it so I did not see the RPM's. I am going to take it off the MSX after I go through the Ficht stator test procedure.

    One odd thing I did not have any fuel coming out of the supply line when it was cranking. So I will have to troubleshoot the fuel pump also...
    This is often misunderstood, on all Polaris watercraft, even the carburetor models.

    The Start button, start solenoid and the starter cranking the engine are in no way connected to the ignition system. *

    The start system merely gets the engine rotating, mechanically cranking. There is no electrical signal from the Start button to anything else.

    While the engine is cranking the flywheel is turning, and the electrical signals from the magneto stator are used to wake up the ignition system, on all Polaris watercraft right back to the old Fuji engines, the red domestics with carburetors, and also the Ficht fuel injected 2-stroke engines.

    On the Ficht engine the stator must be plugged into the EMM and also the CPS sensor must be working. The EMM will not 'wake up' unless the basic input signals are valid for a cranking engine.

    Once the EMM does wake up it checks the other sensors and decides if it should actually try starting the engine. Only then will it power up the fuel pump, fire the fuel injectors and light the spark plugs.

    Note: Do not allow the fuel pump to run or the EMM to try starting the engine if the Ficht fuel injectors are not bolted into the cylinder heads. The injectors need to be clamped down to avoid fuel spewing out the sides or blowing the tip section off the injectors.

    * The Start/Stop button on Genesis and Virage is indirectly connected to the ignition via the ignition kill signal from the LR module.

  7. #7
    jajardas's Avatar
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    That makes a lot of sense, now that you explained it.

    On the Ficht engine the stator must be plugged into the EMM and also the CPS sensor must be working. The EMM will not 'wake up' unless the basic input signals are valid for a cranking engine.

    Thanks K for all the info and support and I will post my findings.
    JJ

  8. #8
    jajardas's Avatar
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    Test results input in RED.

    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/trumpet/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG] Ficht stator testing - ohms, voltages, EMM wiring

    The Ficht stator is not grounded at any point. It is a floating AC power source, that feeds directly into the EMM.

    There should be no continuity between any of the Ficht stator coils and the engine ground.

    See attached for connector pinouts and AC voltages on the Ficht 12-pin stator cable connectorwhile cranking (fully charged and healthy battery required).
    1 (BROWN/WHITE) AND 12 (BROWN) 7VAC (feeds 12 volt rectifier section, coil resistance 0.1 - 0.3 ohms)
    Had 8 AVC ... 0.5 Ohms no continuity to ground

    2 (brOWN/BLACK) AND 11 (BROWN/YELLOW) 7VAC (feeds 12 volt rectifier section, coil resistance 0.1 - 0.3 ohms) Had 7 AVC ...0.5 Ohms no continuity to ground

    3 (YELLOW/BLUE) AND 10 (YELLOW) 5VAC (feeds 45 volt rectifier section, coil resistance 0.3 - 0.5 ohms)Had 14 ACV ... 0.6 Ohms Had continuity to ground

    4 (YELLOW/BLUE) AND 9 (YELLOW/BLACK) 5VAC (feeds 45 volt rectifier section, coil resistance 0.3 - 0.5 ohms) Had 5 ACV ... 0.5 Ohms no continuity to ground


    5 (YELLOW/GREEN) AND 8 (YELLOW/GRAY) 5VAC (feeds 45 volt rectifier section, coil resistance 0.3 - 0.5 ohms)Had 11 ACV ...0.5 Ohms no continuity to ground.

    There are three stator coils that feed the 45 volt DC system (5 VAC while cranking), and two stator coils (7 VAC while cranking) that feed the 12 volt battery charging system.

    Used this meter below for testing. All reading were with a battery that at test time showed 13.6 dc volts with the plugs removed. So the question is because pin 3 and 10 have continuity to ground I am in the market for a new stator. Could there be any other reason for continuity to ground?

    ***Just want to note the first attempt to test the voltage I did not get a reading because I had not switched to AC volts after testing the battery*** This may help help someone else.


    Thanks in advance for feedback and help.

    JJ

  9. #9
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Check the stator wires for frayed insulation. You may need to remove the stator to fully inspect the wiring.

    Any connection to ground from any coil is no good for a Ficht stator.

    It does look like you need a new stator. When you remove the flywheel check the magnets for damage or looseness.

  10. #10
    jajardas's Avatar
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    Update to complete this thread.

    The flywheel magnets let loose and damaged the stator. Units is all back together, New thru hull, jet pumps bearings. Just waiting for the maiden voyage.

    Thanks K for the help.
    JJ

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