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  1. #1

    Ultra 250x Manufacturing Defects - UPDATED

    Greetings,

    Since many of you asked me to provide updates regarding the blow-by defect that is resulting in gas and carbon in the oil, I have the following information to share.

    I met with the folks at Riva today after they had an opportunity to tear-down the engine. After having several of their lead technicians inspect the engine, the preliminary results are showing the blow-by is occurring in the two center cylinders (see attached photos). The cause is unclear. It does appear the rings are not seating properly because they are showing little wear. Thus the rings appear not to be making sufficient contact with the cylinder walls. One of the technicians suggested the materials used in fabricating the rings may be too hard and as a consequence are not seating properly. Riva is continuing their inspection of this craft and undertook additional measurements to ascertain whether the rings are within tolerances. Since the lead technician on this inspection had his in-laws coming to visit today, his day ended earlier and a final report should be made on Monday.

    As for Kawasaki, I received a phone call from one of Kawasaki’s corporate executives. They are now speaking with Riva to determine what can be done to resolve the problem(s) resulting from this defect and the previously identified defects in my earlier post.
    I’m hopeful this information and photos may be helpful to some readers.

    Cheers,
    Robert
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  2. #2
    Silence! I Keel You! earthshaker's Avatar
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    Way to get'er done Robert.

  3. #3
    That...is a quality post. [thumbs up]

    I'd be interested to know how you broke your ski in. Did you follow the recommended guidelines? I...uh...didn't.

    Wondering if getting on it hard early in the motor's life helps, or not...

  4. #4
    Take the time to smile sirbreaksalot's Avatar
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    Talking

    As far as the best procedure for breaking in
    No syn oil
    no extended peroids of idle ( dont idle it on the trailer to show of to your mates when you get it home,same goes for down at the ramp)
    load the engine as early as possible ( with out abuseing or over revving)
    slow down accel up and gradualy getting RPM'S higher
    and keep repeating
    get ski hot ( running temp)
    cool down
    repeat process and slowly getting RPM high ( still with out holding WOT for extended periods small blips are ok)

    this is how we run Group A touring cars in at work on dyno or the track.

    All this does is force the ring on to the honed cylinder and BED THEM IN

    pretty simple realy


    if you run it in wrong, it will always be wrong. that is you will get blowby, oil usage, and decreased performance.
    And no amount of complaining will ever fix the rings till you rehone and replace them ( ie ITS not Kawis fault if ring dont bed if you do it wrong)

    basicly all this happens in the first start up till approx 1HR or so most of it happens. some take longer some quicker, but at the end of the day Do it right.
    cause after then its all over.

    and no laywers can fix that.

    just my opinion as a person who has been involved in race engines for 15yrs


    but then again, the wheel mat have been re-invented.

    OH YER prove me wrong

  5. #5
    Silence! I Keel You! earthshaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbreaksalot View Post
    ( ie ITS not Kawis fault if ring dont bed if you do it wrong)

    and no laywers can fix that.
    My understanding of the KDS software has the ability to extract all the info stored to identify if you have "broke it in - incorrectly"

    Robert, can you describe how you broke it in?

  6. #6
    Take the time to smile sirbreaksalot's Avatar
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    that is smart thinking if it is so. on Kawis side

    what better way to prove incorrect opreration over just paying out money in

    DEFECTIVE product claims ( warranty) if that was the case.

    we use heat tabs on different points of the engine to prove over heating.

  7. #7
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    For what it's worth.

    Today's world..

    Rings are not made to "seal" like back in the Model A Ford days and take up for Manufacturing defects. Your bores should be round.

    Measure them (Bores).

    If they are round meaning within .0006-.001 Your problem is not rings or bore fits.

    What happens in boosted motors is a lot of blow-by due to a host of other things. You also need to look at how Kawasaki choose to manage their environmental emission system cause It could of very well been routing through your oil system.

    I don't see any piston scuffing there nor do your pictures show anything that i would be concerned with for a Blown PWC application.

    IMO

    PS, I got 5 years experience with blowers and PWC's and 26 years of others. Plus, I Make from scratch (not just build) my own engines.




    Shawn

  8. #8
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    Adding to my last post…. If you look at the top ring land in your pictures you will see that the rings are sealing the cylinder pressure nicely, some blow-by but not alarming. (see the dark color above the ring land, that’s what that shows. Heat is not going past the ring or it would discolor the whole piston face)


    The next step check I would do is this....

    1) Heat the block to 450F 2 hours.

    2) Measure bores for roundness at 450,250,150,100F

    3) Chart results and it should show roundness within .001 inch..

    This will show if block is stable at Temps.


    I’m sure Kawasaki Engineering has done this when they built the block but I figure I’d give you a FYI.


    Shawn

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by earthshaker View Post
    My understanding of the KDS software has the ability to extract all the info stored to identify if you have "broke it in - incorrectly"

    Robert, can you describe how you broke it in?
    I agree with the previous author's statements regarding proper break-in, ect. However, this is not an issue resulting from improper break-in and warm up ect.

    The problems I am experiencing are problems consistent with those being experienced by numerous U250x owners throughout this country. This defect is not just being confirmed by members of this forum and other forums, but other customers of Riva and other watercraft dealers throughout this country and worldwide. One of the problems thus far is Kawasaki has not been willing to pay for dealerships to tear-down motors to inspect the engines for causation. Since my safety and the safety of those around me are of my concern, I have agreed to pay the costs and deal with Kawasaki accordingly. To be clear, according to Riva, my engine is the first U250x engine Riva has inspected. As I am sure some would agree, this seems odd given that some customers at Riva are having oil changes performed every 5 hours and paid for by Kawasaki.

    On a more positive note, this afternoon I was assured by Kawasaki's David Armstrong, that he will have this matter resolved. This most positive signaling by Kawasaki was confirmed by Riva in a phone call from Riva's service manager this evening (yep, they keep late hours at Riva service).

    Nevertheless, I am hopeful this is helpful information.

    r-
    Last edited by email2; 08-25-2007 at 07:46 AM.

  10. #10
    SeaDoocer
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    Way to go Robert! Yes, and if you talk with R&D they will tell you also that is has been a problem even with the f15's! This is happening all over the U.S. in spite of some who are determined to make it appear as being all in some peoples' minds....this is more than just break in...way to go..you have taken the time and YOUR money to do someting that others would not...this will be a big help to a lot of people. If there is anything I or others can do please let us know!

    Wayne

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