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  1. #1

    Oil Ratings Question

    I hate to start an oil thread, but, after two seasons, I finally got my rebuilt Freedom through the break-in dino oil (only a couple trips to the river ) and would like to switch to synthetic. I have a gallon and a half of synthetic Polaris VES Gold I acquired, but I can't find any ratings on the bottle anywhere. (or any info here or on the Net)Polaris recommends TC-W3 in these machines. My questions are:
    1. Can I use the VES Gold in this non-exhaust valve application?
    2. Does anyone know the ratings for this stuff?

    I also have a quart of the blue Polaris Premium Synthetic-Blend. Same questions I guess.

    I would like to use the Gold if I could. It smells so pretty!

    3. If I decide to go with another synthetic in case I can't use the Gold, does it have to say TC-W3, or is that a Dino oil rating only?
    4. Are there different ratings for Synthetics?

    Thanks all and glad to see the regulars from the "other place" over here....it's been awhile


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Hulk!

    I don't have the info on the Polaris oils handy, but the following is from my notes;

    Some Polaris owners are running ISO-EGD rated oil, apparently without trouble.

    TC-W3 is an old spec, mostly related to oil residue levels rather than lubrication ability.

    From The Late Great Oil Debate; It is important to note that oil designed to meet TCW3 (Ashless) specs only will not protect an engine requiring API-TC (Low Ash) type oil. The converse is also true. Using a Low Ash oil in an engine designed for an Ashless type oil only could result in fouled plugs and gummy combustion chambers.


    Sea-Doo engines 787 onwards require API TC oil minimum, due to high operating temperatures (sold as Bomabrdier XPS oil, made by only by Castrol)
    Best protection exceeding API TC:
    oil meets or exceeds ISO EGD (best), JASO FD (best), ISO EGC, JASO FC
    For comparable protection to API TC:
    oil that meets or exceeds ISO EGB, JASO FB, or API TC

    Shell;
    Nautilus PWC Personal Watercraft Oil API-TC, also ISO-EGD
    Last edited by MikeTrin; 10-29-2008 at 08:03 AM. Reason: removed plug for rogue site

  3. #3

    So...Can I Use This Stuff???

    Thanks for the reply and the links. After reading through it all, I couldn't determine whether or not I can use the Polaris VES Gold in a Freedom 700 converted to premix. Anyone?? I'm going out to the Colorado river this weekend (brrrr), so any help soon would be appreciated. Thanks...Joe

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    What ratings are listed on the label of your VES Gold oil?

    According to this web site, the Polaris synthetic Gold oils are rated using the newer ISO methods, not the much older TC-W3 tests (which are actually rather limited testing methods).

    ISO-EGD is actually a very good oil rating, as is JASO-FC.

    If your oil is ISO-EGD rated, you should be more than fine running with it.
    I presume your engine is already broken in.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    What ratings are listed on the label of your VES Gold oil?

    According to this web site, the Polaris synthetic Gold oils are rated using the newer ISO methods, not the much older TC-W3 tests (which are actually rather limited testing methods).

    ISO-EGD is actually a very good oil rating, as is JASO-FC.

    If your oil is ISO-EGD rated, you should be more than fine running with it.
    I presume your engine is already broken in.
    Just because the oil has a good rating does not make it compatable with premxing. You are trying to use a product that was not made for your intended use. Premix oils have a thining agent that allows it to flow thru the oil pumps and filters. Contact the OEM Manufacturer for the products correct usage. DO not go just by peoples opinions. PWC owners are notorius in thinking they should eliminate the oil pumps the OEMS use. OEMS spent huge $$$$$$$$$$ to design and put oil injection on the engines. In our 30 plus years of working on sleds and watercraft we have replaced less then 1% of all the oil pumps due to a problem with the pump itself. Over 90% of the time its the riders or owners "NEGLECT" that caused the issue with oiling with an oil injected engine!!!!!!!


    Every Oil OEM will have this type of usage chart
    http://www.oilami.com/twocycleoil.htm
    This is from Amsoil for there oils only :
    TWO-CYCLE OIL RECOMMENDATION
    AMSOIL Product
    Outboard(4)(5)
    Snowmobile(4),
    Motorcycle(4) & ATV(4)
    Personal Watercraft(3)(4)
    & Jet Boat(3)(4)
    Chainsaw,
    Chop Saw & Pump
    Weed Eater,
    Blower & Lawn Mower
    Moped, Scooter
    & Go-Cart
    HP Injector (HPI)
    TC-W3, API TC

    (Injection or 50:1 Pre-Mix)
    Excellent

    Very Good
    Very Good
    Not recommended
    Not recommended
    Not recommended
    INTERCEPTOR (AIT)

    API TC, JASO FC
    Not recommended

    Excellent
    Excellent
    Good
    Good
    Good
    DOMINATOR (TDR)

    API TC, JASO FC
    Racing (1)

    Racing (2)
    Racing (2)
    Very Good
    Very Good
    Very Good
    Saber Professional 100:1 (ATP)
    Pre-Mix ISO-L-EGD

    JASO FD, API TC
    Not recommended

    Very Good
    Pre-Mix Only
    Very Good
    Pre-Mix Only
    Excellent
    Excellent
    Excellent
    Saber Outboard 100:1 (ATO)

    Pre-Mix, TC-W3, API TC
    Excellent

    Pre-Mix Only
    Very Good
    Pre-Mix Only
    Very Good
    Pre-Mix Only
    Not recommended
    Not recommended
    Not recommended

    Even though AMSOIL 2-Cycle Oils have been optimized for specific applications, they are multi-functional and recommended for use in many areas. The chart rates each oil's performance abilities per application as follows: Excellent: "The" primary recommendation for the oil. This is the best possible choice for the application. The oil is specifically designed for the operating conditions of the motors in these markets. There is only one "Excellent" recommendation per category.
    Very Good: A main recommendation for the oil. Identifies an oil that is very good for the operating conditions of these motors.
    Good: A secondary recommendation for an oil. The oil was not specifically designed for these applications, however, the chemistry in the oil is suited to the operating conditions of these motors.
    Not Recommended: Identifies applications where the product was not intended for use. "Excellent" rated products offer superior performance.

    Notes:
    (1) Not recommended for long-term use in outboard motors as a TC-W3 type oil, although excellent as a racing oil for short term use where motors are periodically inspected.
    (2) Excellent for racing or modified motors. Very good for recreational use.
    (3) For applications calling for a TC-W3 product use the recommendations listed under "Outboards."
    (4) Recommended for all direct fuel injected (DFI), electronic fuel injected (EFI) and carbureted motors.
    (5) Includes Mercury®, Optimax®, Johnson® & Evinrude® FICHT® & E-TEC™, Yamaha® HPDI, Nissan® & Tohatsu® TLDI®
    Last edited by prochamp; 04-17-2008 at 10:41 AM.

  6. #6
    I think the ves is for snowmobiles and not marine rated
    http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ZMANN View Post
    I think the ves is for snowmobiles and not marine rated
    http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/
    EXACTLY

    NONE OF THE TEST'S COVER USING OIL INJECTION INTENDED OILS as A PREMIX OIL

  8. #8
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    I personally like retaining the Polaris oil pump system.

    According to Polaris, the Pure Polaris VES Gold Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil is designed for valved 2-stroke engines, but;
    "It can be used in any Polaris 2-cycle engine (snowmobile, ATV or watercraft) and it will do an excellent job of lubricating and keeping the engine clean. But it was developed specifically for the needs of the VES engines, and that's where it really delivers."

    Since Polaris doesn't make any pre-mixed engines, the pre-mix compatibility question is separate from whether the oil itself is OK for the Virage engine. From what I have read, the Polaris Gold oil should be fine for the engine, as long as it is compatible with pre-mixing.

    How one determines whether the Gold oil is compatible with pre-mix? I cannot answer that question.

  9. #9
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    My limited understanding of the TC-W3 testing method is that it is a pre-mix only test certification. Since Polaris doesn't sell pre-mix powered products, their use of TC-W3 rated oil was probably because there weren't any viable alternative oil rating methods at the time (early 1990's).

    It appears that Polaris has now moved away from TC-W3 as an oil rating system, to the newer ISO and JASO rating methods.

    Does NMMA do testing to standards other than TC-W3?
    That might explain why some 2-stroke oils are not listed there, despite being good products.

  10. #10
    K447 - thanks again for your input. My ski was a trashed rental that smoked the front main bearings about 3 rides after I picked it up because the oil pump failed. Instead of replacing, I chose to premix. I'm just finishing up the last of the break-in Dino oil.

    The origination of my question was based on the fact that the VES Gold labeling doesn't state what rating/standard it meets. As prochamp kindly posted the usage chart for Amsoil, might you know where I can find one for the Polaris products? That's really what I'm looking for.

    Not trying to dispute or argue the finer points of the manufacturers' injection system, or which oil is best here. Just have this stuff lying around going to waste....and it smells soooo good

    I'm trying to contact the manufacturer now. I'll post any info I find on the Polaris oils.

    ZMANN - you ever make it to Canyon Lake?

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