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  1. #1

    Join Date
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    No spark in Australia

    Summer is here in oz, over 100 today !!!!!
    First, thanks for all tips & stuff here, I've been using
    http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15437
    as the electric bible
    But I need more help
    Ski 2001 Virage twin stopped the other day at sea and needed towing in, have no spark at all, although you can feel a weak effort with fingers !!!!!!
    Had box open checked everything, coil giving me 2900ohms not 1600-1700 so I bought one, new one exactly the same !!!!!
    With old one back and after testing all but finding nothing, suddenly get a nice fat spark, beauty she goes again but sometimes it will restart sometimes not.
    Back now to no spark mode. but left only with triggers, can these be intermittent ?
    CDI gets 12v (from orange circuit) gives 9 to stator brown
    kill switch perfect but LR nearly grounds out blk/yellow-- disconnected but makes no diff to spark.
    all stator readings correct
    Battery is new and fully charged
    Guess it has to be stator plate but I don't get it, there is always a weak try so they are sending something.
    Can LR do this ? is there a check other than disconnect blk / yellow ?
    As coincidence the accelerator pump stopped too, any obvious fixes for that ?

    thanks
    Martin


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Hulk!

    Where in Oz are you located?
    Click here to update your Profile.

    Have you downloaded the 2002 Polaris Factory Service Manual? Closest year we have online to 2001.

    I (and others) have the 2001 Polaris manual in printed form, if there is something that the 2002 PDF manual doesn't cover for your 2001 Virage.

    Do check that the Orange wire drops to zero volts when the engine is off. If it stays at 12 volts with the engine off, that is not proper behaviour, and the LR module needs to be replaced.

    If you still suspect the LR regulator (which is probably NOT the problem), you can connect the CDI's Red/Purple wire directly to the other Red/Purple +12 volt wires, instead of the Orange switched feed. This takes the LR regulator out of the equation, but sometimes causes the engine to not want to restart (CDI sometimes thinks the motor is still running).

    Also confirm that the battery voltage is ALWAYS above 10.5 volts, especially WHILE cranking the engine over. A good battery should be 11.0 volts or higher, but 10.6 volts is the absolute minimum for the CDI ignition system to fire. If you get a strong spark just as you let off the start button, that is a sign of a weak battery.

    If there is ANY possibility that the battery is not strong, replace it with another good quality new one. We have had countless reports of troublesome no-start issues. When the battery is finally replaced with a new one, very often all the no-start problems go away! I prefer the factory sealed AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) type batteries. Even new batteries can sometimes have problems.

    As you surmised, (presuming the battery is good) the problem could be the electrical stator coils under the flywheel. They can go bad in an intermittent fashion.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the Polaris twin engine fires both spark plugs together every time. You have changed the ignition coil, but not the CDI - correct?
    Coil failure is rare, CDI failure is not so rare.

    I recall reading something about some accelerator pumps needing to be primed. Do some searching, but the essence was using a screwdriver to push the accelerator pump farther in than the throttle motion normally does. After a couple of strokes, it should be primed and start working.

    I don't recall whether the engine needed to be running (to supply fuel pressure) while priming the accelerator pump.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Thanks
    I'm near Melbourne, play in Port Phillip Bay !!!
    got manual from here before even had a problem-- thanks
    Re LR I was more concerned about it earthing the CDI but guess I've already isolated that.
    orange drops to zero when off, 12V when you hit starter or it's running
    battery brand spanking new today-- strong as an ox -- other one was new anyway but I understand the issue so swapped it to be sure. Over 11.5 cranking !!!!
    Puzzle with "CDI thinks"-- what does it do when it thinks it's running ? what's the check ? CDI and stator meter out good by manual but haven't done the turn flywheel with 9v battery test because
    a) it's stinking hot !!!
    b) Can't see how to turn flywheel
    Will this test absolutely test trigger coils ?
    Any other checks for CDI ?

    Tried connecting purple / reds to cut LR out but then the starter (via LR thinking ?) won't run. I can see how to short this to earth starter solenoid but don't see how this can help, CDI gets 12v happily now.

    Will try priming trick, def easier than taking carb off to get to pump !!!
    Cheers
    Martin
    some of what I do
    www.jacksonracing.com.au


    [QUOTE=K447;938060]Welcome to the Hulk!

    Where in Oz are you located?
    Click here to update your Profile.

    If you still suspect the LR regulator (which is probably NOT the problem), you can connect the CDI's Red/Pruple wire directly to the other Red/Purple +12 volt wires, instead of the Orange switched feed. This takes the LR regulator out of the equation, but sometimes causes the engine to not want to restart (CDI sometimes thinks the motor is still running).

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozmartin View Post
    ...Puzzle with "CDI thinks"-- what does it do when it thinks it's running ? what's the check ?

    CDI and stator meter out good by manual but haven't done the turn flywheel with 9v battery test because
    a) it's stinking hot !!!
    b) Can't see how to turn flywheel
    Will this test absolutely test trigger coils ?
    Any other checks for CDI ?...
    If your model has single push button for both starting and stopping the engine, the CDI + LR need to figure out whether the engine is running or not, so it can either crank the starter, or shut down the engine.

    After running and then stopping the engine, some CDI would get confused, and pressing the Start button would not crank and start the engine, it would just sit there. After a while, it would sometimes then start OK, until the next time it was shut down.

    By powering the CDI from the Orange wire (switched 12 volts from the LR module), the CDI was completely powered down every time the engine was stopped. This guranteed that the next time the start button was pressed, the CDI would promptly wake up, crank and start.

    This is why your CDI Red/Purple is connected to the Orange wire.

    To rotate the engine by hand, remove the plastic cover from the drive shaft coupler at the rear of the engine. Then you can grab (with the engine OFF, of course) the coupler, and turn the motor over. Take the spark plugs out to make it easier to turn.

    Once you have ohm tested the stator coils, and confirmed solid connections and voltages for the start/stop buttons and wiring, and LR and CDI voltages are correct, the real test for a CDI is to replace it with a know good CDI. If the problem remains, it is probably the stator coils. If the problem is fixed, it was the CDI.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    If your model has single push button for both starting and stopping the engine, the CDI + LR need to figure out whether the engine is running or not, so it can either crank the starter, or shut down the engine.

    After running and then stopping the engine, some CDI would get confused, and pressing the Start button would not crank and start the engine, it would just sit there. After a while, it would sometimes then start OK, until the next time it was shut down.

    By powering the CDI from the Orange wire (switched 12 volts from the LR module), the CDI was completely powered down every time the engine was stopped. This guranteed that the next time the start button was pressed, the CDI would promptly wake up, crank and start.

    This is why your CDI Red/Purple is connected to the Orange wire.

    To rotate the engine by hand, remove the plastic cover from the drive shaft coupler at the rear of the engine. Then you can grab (with the engine OFF, of course) the coupler, and turn the motor over. Take the spark plugs out to make it easier to turn.

    Once you have ohm tested the stator coils, and confirmed solid connections and voltages for the start/stop buttons and wiring, and LR and CDI voltages are correct, the real test for a CDI is to replace it with a know good CDI. If the problem remains, it is probably the stator coils. If the problem is fixed, it was the CDI.
    thanks understand all the above except exactly what the CDI does when it thinks it's running or not. If I make it unswitched it will always have 12v so where does it change ? Seems to me it can do the same thing when switched, but don't know what I'm looking for
    mine has single button, don't know why, tether is good kill on it's own.

    unfortunately I don't have another CDI to try, buying one will take time and $, if there is a test I'd like to try it first-- as I say it meters out fine.
    will try stator test but as I can feel spark even when it's not showing I think trigger must be working, but I've been wrong before !!!!

  6. #6
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Have you meter checked the spark plug wires and plug boots for internal breaks?

    When it doesn't start, you can feel a weak 'high' voltage, but not enough to actually create a spark at the plug - correct?

    And other times, it will spark strongly, and the engine will actually run just fine?

    Until when? Does it die by itself, or lose power, or just not restart after you shut it down on purpose?

    Any predictability or pattern to when it doesn't spark (or start)?

    I for got to mention - check/clean/tighten all grounds, especially BOTH ends of the battery negative cable, and check the black wires to ground in the electrical box. There is actually only one wire from the electrical box to ground, and that runs through the wire bundle that feeds the stator.

    There must be good and solid connection all the way from the electrical box to the battery negative terminal. Nothing loose or corroded.

    Also, you should have zero rust or corrosion inside the electrical box, front or back sides of the terminal board.

  7. #7

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    Yes to all checks
    yes to feeble spark / proper spark, just can't figure why
    apart from death at sea which was absolute stop, every time yesterday and today it is cos I killed it and it won't restart. No pattern, sometimes it did 4 restarts sometimes none. May or may not work after a rest.
    Today it stopped coming good & I left it.
    Sounds like it's worth putting another earth in it, black tests good but maybe when CDI / coil load it up it could fail ?
    Bilge pumpworks so earth is good there
    Major engine earth is good and starter spins well
    but I still struggle with the CDI "thinking", love to know how you can read it's mind, there must be a clue .
    Thanks for help
    Martin

  8. #8
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    When it does not start, try holding down the bilge button (so the bilge pump is running), and while holding the bilge button, start the engine. The bilge button bypasses the switched 12 volt output on the LR-505 module, forcing power to the Orange wire.

    Please confirm that the Red/Purple wire for the CDI module, is directly connected to the spade terminal on the board where the Orange wires are connected. This is the correct place for the Red/Purple wire feeding the CDI. It was changed from the original factory connection, per a Service Bulletin, to correct a 'no start after running' condition.

    The Yellow (tachometer) and Black/Yellow (engine run/stop) signals are the ones the CDI watches to determine whether to produce spark. Even with the engine NOT rotating, some CDI would still not produce spark after being shut down. The fix was to completely remove power from the CDI when the engine stopped, by powering the CDI from the Orange wire. As you have tested, the Orange wire goes to zero volts when the engine is stopped.

    When the engine starts rotating (cranking), the LR module again supplies power to the Orange wire. This powers up the CDI (and the bilge pump). The CDI then detects that the engine is turning, and supplies spark.

    The LR-505 modules are known to fail (especially the original factory part), so it is possible that the problem is the LR-505. There may be an updated replacement part number for the 4010648 (LR-505).

    The Black/Yellow connection is important. It is the control that shuts down the CDI to kill the engine. The LR-505 normally provides between 2-5 volts on Black/Yellow, which allows the CDI to produce spark. The Stop button shorts the Black/Yellow to ground, which tells the CDI to stop sparking.

    If the Black/Yellow wire has too low a voltage, that could cause the CDI to not produce spark. Check the voltage on Black/Yellow when the engine is cranking, and when it is running. How much voltage do you have there?

    LR-505 (Start/Stop regulator, spade connectors) carb'ed models (Freedom, Virage, Virage TX, Genesis)
    Red/Purple - 12 volt power
    Orange - Switched 12 volt power
    Black/White - Starter solenoid (in from solenoid) Also senses Start/Stop switch voltage when engine is running to stop engine.
    Black/Yellow - Ignition Kill (Engine Run signal is 2-5 volts) Stop lanyard switch grounds Black/Yellow
    Black - Ground
    Purple/White - Starter solenoid (out - to MFI, grounded when MFI unlocked)
    Yellow - Tachometer signal

  9. #9
    casey67's Avatar
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    Had box open checked everything, coil giving me 2900ohms not 1600-1700 so I bought one, new one exactly the same !!!!!
    With old one back and after testing all but finding nothing, suddenly get a nice fat spark, beauty she goes again but sometimes it will restart sometimes not.


    thanks
    Martin[/quote]

    The service manual claims the secondary winding needs to
    be 1200-1600 ohm with plug wires removed .Strangely It also refers to the coil as a 1550 ohm coil.
    The primary windings should be 0.35 ohms.

    There is a member here from Australia,Bernie.Not sure exactly where in Aus. He has worked on many of these and may have parts or answers for you.Good luck.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    When it does not start, try holding down the bilge button (so the bilge pump is running), and while holding the bilge button, start the engine. The bilge button bypasses the switched 12 volt output on the LR-505 module, forcing power to the Orange wire.

    Tried this but same result, orange switched circuit always powers up on cranking.

    Please confirm that the Red/Purple wire for the CDI module, is directly connected to the spade terminal on the board where the Orange wires are connected. This is the correct place for the Red/Purple wire feeding the CDI. It was changed from the original factory connection, per a Service Bulletin, to correct a 'no start after running' condition.

    I understand this from tips thread, yes as you say, all done before I got it and fine for the last year not one problem
    CDI gets 12v at cranking and running 0v at rest.
    But I now have the exact problem except start switch "knows" it's not running and cranks.


    The Yellow (tachometer) and Black/Yellow (engine run/stop) signals are the ones the CDI watches to determine whether to produce spark. Even with the engine NOT rotating, some CDI would still not produce spark after being shut down. The fix was to completely remove power from the CDI when the engine stopped, by powering the CDI from the Orange wire. As you have tested, the Orange wire goes to zero volts when the engine is stopped.

    When the engine starts rotating (cranking), the LR module again supplies power to the Orange wire. This powers up the CDI (and the bilge pump). The CDI then detects that the engine is turning, and supplies spark.

    The LR-505 modules are known to fail (especially the original factory part), so it is possible that the problem is the LR-505. There may be an updated replacement part number for the 4010648 (LR-505).

    The Black/Yellow connection is important. It is the control that shuts down the CDI to kill the engine. The LR-505 normally provides between 2-5 volts on Black/Yellow, which allows the CDI to produce spark. The Stop button shorts the Black/Yellow to ground, which tells the CDI to stop sparking.

    If the Black/Yellow wire has too low a voltage, that could cause the CDI to not produce spark. Check the voltage on Black/Yellow when the engine is cranking, and when it is running. How much voltage do you have there?
    This is the meaty part
    just tested and have less than 1v-- .6--.7 v at blk/yellow from LR cranking
    But
    With and without connecting this got good spark and started instantly from cold ( actually seriously hot but engine not run for 24 hours) once connected once not.
    Made and broke this several times, engine same. ran perfectly
    Killed it with tether-- back to no-go.
    Has this isolated LR ? CDI works without this 2-5v but restart after grounding is the issue.
    After reading your post I was certain it would now be obvious but no I'm still lost.
    Should the 2-5v be at cranking / running only or at rest ?
    How can CDI start easily without this voltage ?
    have I proven CDI is faulty, if so can I buy one through here ?


    LR-505 (Start/Stop regulator, spade connectors) carb'ed models (Freedom, Virage, Virage TX, Genesis)
    Red/Purple - 12 volt power
    Orange - Switched 12 volt power
    Black/White - Starter solenoid (in from solenoid) Also senses Start/Stop switch voltage when engine is running to stop engine.
    Black/Yellow - Ignition Kill (Engine Run signal is 2-5 volts) Stop lanyard switch grounds Black/Yellow
    Black - Ground
    Purple/White - Starter solenoid (out - to MFI, grounded when MFI unlocked)
    Yellow - Tachometer signal

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