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  1. #1

    04 MSX 150 jumped with positive and negatives at solenoid. HELP!!!

    Update....I was recently informed that my polaris with 20hrs on it,was jumped by a friends car, with both positive/negative ends of jumper cables hooked up to the each end of the solenoid posts and turned the engine over. Nice right......Well now when the start button is engaged I get nothing but a blown 15 amp battery fuse. Any ideas on how bad this could be. Upon reading, most cases just seemed to be a bad starter solenoid. But with shattered hopes Im thinking this may be much worse case and he may owe me a new ski, or a nice chunk of change. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by mattsverynice; 06-16-2009 at 02:52 AM. Reason: EDIT


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Do you know which solenoid terminal the negative jump cable was connected to?
    The one going to the PWC battery, or the one going to the PWC starter motor?

    What exactly did they do after they had connected the two jumper cables?
    Was the start button pressed with those jumper cables attached?



    It sounds like these friend's are not familiar with PWC safety, or even with marine safety. You should never jump start a PWC - if the battery needs boosting now, it could die again while out on the water, leaving the rider stranded.

  3. #3

    jump start

    Ya all I could say is idiot. Apparently the negative side of the cable was hooked up to the starter side of the solenoid, so he thinks. He did then turn the engine over with cables attached and it did turned over for a second and went dead. Has been that way for a week now. I did find a blown 30amp stator fuse, 15amp battery fuse initially and replaced both. But now everytime I engage the start button with lanyard in place it just blows the 15amp battery fuse every time. I can turn the engine over though by jumping the posts of the starter solenoid but it wont fire. It has been a mess and the scematics for the electrical system are not very accurate or easy to follow for this model. Thanks for the help.
    Last edited by mattsverynice; 06-16-2009 at 04:28 PM. Reason: edit info

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsverynice View Post
    ...every time I engage the start button with lanyard in place it just blows the 15amp battery fuse...

    I can turn the engine over though by jumping the posts of the starter solenoid but it wont fire. ..
    The starter solenoid coil may be shorted.

    Unplug the small connector from the solenoid, and see if the fuse no longer blows when you press start.

    If the fuse is OK, press the start button down, and at the same time, short the large solenoid terminals to crank the engine. You might want to have a helper for this.

    The idea is to simulate the normal start process, without actually using the solenoid. If this works, replace the solenoid.

  5. #5

    Amazing

    I did what you said and after all the time I put into it, It started right up. I never would of thought. I tried shorting the terminals with no luck other than turning over. Didnt realize you needed to unplug the starter and hold the start button. I thought I was in serious trouble. I now love my polaris. Thank all for helping.

  6. #6
    Lake Mead Bum & BTLS Mark starflight's Avatar
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    K447 is an electrical Genius isn't he. He definitely knows hows current flows!

  7. #7
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Arrow Why and how a solenoid coil can short out, how to diagnose

    Quote Originally Posted by mattsverynice View Post
    I did what you said and after all the time I put into it, It started right up. I never would of thought. I tried shorting the terminals with no luck other than turning over.

    Didn't realize you needed to unplug the starter and hold the start button. I thought I was in serious trouble.

    I now love my Polaris. Thank all for helping.
    Glad to hear that it worked

    I learned about this possible problem from Jay, and some personal electrical knowledge.

    For the benefit of others, here is what I think happened.

    The MSX 150 solenoid coil probably also has a diode inside, just like the solenoids on the newer Genesis, Virage and MSX 140. The purpose of the diode is to dampen the electrical surge that happens when current is flowing through a coil, and the power is suddenly cut off.

    In an old school ignition system with points, that is how the system developed the spark voltage - by suddenly cutting off the current flow through the ignition coil primary when the points opened. The result is a huge magnetic field change, and an equally large voltage spike, which fires the spark plug.

    When you press the Start button on your PWC, you are sending electric current through the solenoid coil. The coil magnetizes, and yanks the heavy contacts for the starter motor together, which then cranks the engine.

    When the engine starts, you release the Start button. The current flow through the solenoid coil stops instantly (because you let go of the button), and the magnetic field inside the solenoid collapses. But, we don't want that magnetic field change to create a huge voltage spike inside the PWC electrical system.

    The diode inside the solenoid instantly reacts, and snubs the excessive voltage from the coil. These surge diodes are fairly robust, but they can be destroyed if they are heavily overloaded. Normally, that doesn't happen.

    One way to destroy a diode almost instantly is to force current through the solenoid coil with the wrong polarity. One popular way is to connect the battery backwards.

    Nothing bad happens to the solenoid, until you press the Start button. Suddenly the diode inside the solenoid is presented with a reverse polarity voltage surge, and it tries to clamp that voltage. The battery can supply way more power than the diode can handle, and the diode dies.

    Diodes can die in two ways - as a short circuit, or as an open circuit. It seems that the diodes in the solenoids tend to turn into a short circuit when the diode dies.

    Now you put the battery in correctly, and replace the blown fuse(s). You press the Start button, and the diode short inside the solenoid instantly blows the fuse again.

    By unplugging the solenoid coil connection, the short inside the solenoid can no longer blow the fuse.

    When you press the Start button on a Weber engine, normally not only does the engine crank over, but at the same time the engine computer wakes up and starts firing up the ignition and fuel injection systems. That is why you needed to press the Start button at the same time you manually shorted the solenoid heavy terminals.

    All the non-Weber engines, including the Ficht fuel injected engines, don't electrically wake up in quite the same way as the Weber, but the start solenoid does work the same way.

  8. #8

    WOW!!

    You are a genius. Just going through all the electrical scematics over the last few days kind of awes me that there is that much just to run a ski. I repair multi-million dollar equipment on a daily basis, much of it being electrical and this was beyond me. Thanks for your help again and hopefully people will read these before they try something as stupid.

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    desperado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    Glad to hear that it worked


    For the benefit of others, here is what I think happened.

    .......... The MSX 150 solenoid coil probably also has a diode inside, just like the solenoids on the newer Genesis, Virage and MSX 140........
    Great input K447...

    As an fyi, the diode is external to the solenoid. It is soldered on the #10 Pos (+) wire that connects to the solenoid. Easily located if you remove the plastic wire protector & electrical tape.

  10. #10
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsverynice View Post
    Y...Just going through all the electrical schematics over the last few days kind of awes me that there is that much just to run a ski...
    Frankly, the wiring diagrams for the Polaris Weber models are terrible to work with. Every time I need to look at the Weber electrical stuff, it makes it much harder than it should be.

    Much harder to follow than all the other Polaris models, even the 2-stroke fuel injected engines have better wiring diagrams.

    The electrical complexity that is in your MSX 150 is similar to the competing models from other brands. It just takes a lot of 'stuff' to properly control a fully computerized, turbocharged, emissions compliant PWC engine.

    Look under the seat of a Sea-Doo 255 or IS model, or a Yamaha FZR - it will make your Polaris look easy to service

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