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  1. #1

    '02 Virage 800 DI - no start - list of attempts

    Greetings Hulks:

    First time post, sorry it's with a request. I'll do my best to share what I learn along the way to help populate the information here. VERY good information so far, I have read a lot, tried a lot, and yet.... here I am:

    '02 only has 31 hours on it. It was purchased new only a few years ago by my brother. I think last year it saw very little use (if any?). So this season creeps up and he has a starting problem. Local mechanic at his cabin did not have software to plug in to EMM, but wanted to replace the injectors and EMM for $3k (gulp). Said he tested the stator and fuel pressure. I advised my brother to bring it back home and let me get it started (brother can't trouble shoot motors).

    I have spent most the day with it, reading manual, reading forum, and I'm not sure what else to try. The motor sometimes kinda tries to start. Might cough for a couple revs, but no dice. Mostly just cranks and sort of gets your hopes up. Generally all attempts were with a fresh charge on the new battery, but it seemed to get closer to starting when jumped from a car.

    - Compression is good; both pump up to ~150psi.
    - Put in new plugs today
    - Plugs spark nicely during cranking
    - Fuel pressure is 25psi
    - I drained old gas, and put in fresh juice
    - Pulled drain plug from crankcase, wasn't anything to drain
    - Tried attempts with gas poured down TB's & in spark plug hole, didn't help much
    - Can hear injectors clicking
    - I have pulled connections with 8 & 12 pins to EMM, and they look fine
    - Tried started with TPS disconnected
    - Tested voltage return signal on TPS swept from .39v at idle up to 4.65v at WOT (can only test when hitting start button, and a few moments afterward)
    - Resistance through plug wires were 350 ohm on short one, and 800 ohm on long one
    - Pulled wires to injectors, measured 39v across the wires during cranking
    - Measured 1 ohm resistance on leads on injectors when unplugged (in spec)
    - Inserted an IV into wire connectors at injectors and measured while they were plugged in - only 0.1v between the 2 wires.... should this measured against ground?
    - Pulled an injector off and held it above a rag during a bump on the starter - I was surprised at how much gas came out - also surprised at how close I might have been to a Darwin award
    - Aligned front cyl to TDC, and looked down CPS hole - the 3 reluctors lined up as the manual suggested
    - Measured CPS output on the scope, it has a nice clean signal of about 4v AC (+2/-2); looks like 24 even teeth, plus 3 extras placed in the middle of some

    Couple times, starter stuck on until the start/stop button was jabbed at again. Disassembled button and cleaned out any carbon deposits, no difference. Could the problem be in the start/stop regulator? It wasn't clear to me how to trouble shoot the LR 505.

    Summary: Fuel/Spark/Compression. Spark looks good at plugs when I pull the plug and hold it to ground. Can hear injectors clicking, and have seen it spraying (seemed like a lot with a small bump on starter). Compression checks okay.

    Any suggestions on what else to try?

    Thx, Scott.


  2. #2
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Hulk

    EXCELLENT FIRST POST

    You have covered a lot of ground there - very thorough, especially for a fuel injected engine type that is not familiar to most people.

    There is something not making sense. You say that you have good spark, yet when you put some fuel down the air intakes, the engine did not start.

    If it has compression, fuel, and spark, it should start, even if the injectors are not working. It should run until the fuel you dribbled in is consumed.

    So lets focus there. Prime the engine with some fuel (don't get crazy, just a spoonful or two down each intake is plenty), and lets get it to start.

    Make sure the correct spark plug type is installed - NGK PZFR6H

    Check the resistance from cap to ground.

    Make sure the ground lug on each coil is actually grounded.

    Make sure the caps are snapped in place on both the coils and plugs.

    Check for carbon build-up on plug where cap connects.

    Coil primary is 0.05-0.15 ohms.
    Coil secondary is 225-325 ohms

    Put your multi-meter on the battery posts, and check the voltage while cranking. Should be 11.0 volts or higher with a new, charged battery.

    These Polaris engines really want to see a strong battery, and can give you fits if it is in any way marginal.

    If battery voltage looks good, check voltage with one meter probe on the actual engine block (not a bolt), and the other on the start solenoid stud that has the small red wire. Touch the actual small red wire end, if you can. Voltage during cranking should again be 11.0 volts or better.

    Let us know what you find.
    Last edited by K447; 06-23-2009 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Wrong specs for ignition coils, wires and caps...

  3. #3
    Hey- Thanks for the reply!

    To answer your Q's:
    - yes, proper $plugs$ are in
    - resistance cap to cap is about 1730 ohms. this was pretty far from what you suggested of 8170. but, it seems to be in spec with the manual: each secondary lug is 290 to ground, and the wires were 350 & 800. from cap to cap: 350+290+290+800=1730.
    - each primary connector is 0.1 ohm to ground (you suggested 0.35, but manual says .05-.15) - i think you had the 700cc specs?
    - cranking voltage at 11.3 with jump from car

    I was checking spark by grounding a plug outside the head and watching it. I confirmed index of crank vs TDC. BUT... still wasn't certain that it was firing when it was supposed to. Then, I kind of noticed that the sparks did not look to be firing in an even pattern. See youtube:

    So, my inductive timing light had the bulb fall out and seems to be lost. For this exercise, that was fine though... I hooked up scope to the CPS & to the bulb contact. I recorded a cranking attempt with the plugs out and grounded. The signals were very erratic. If this is an even fire motor firing wasted, it should fire every 12th tooth (not counting the inserted 3 teeth), but it seems to have really big gaps, and some very close to each other. If my method of scoping the bulb output vs. the CPS output is correct, then the ignition is for sure screwy. I'll try to upload pic with 3 sparks where second spark is about 22° after first, then 3rd is about 232° after second. If I can find my timing light bulb, I should be able to confirm visually that they are erratic.

    So.... this is an EMM problem? the orange primary leads come directly from 40 pin in back of EMM, so CDI is integrated?

    What is most cost efficient way to address this? Does someone rebuild these computers?

    Thanks, Scott.

  4. #4
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMonkey View Post
    ...- resistance cap to cap is about 1730 ohms. this was pretty far from what you suggested of 8170. but, it seems to be in spec with the manual: each secondary lug is 290 to ground, and the wires were 350 & 800. from cap to cap: 350+290+290+800=1730.
    - each primary connector is 0.1 ohm to ground (you suggested 0.35, but manual says .05-.15) - i think you had the 700cc specs?
    My bad - I was working on something else for the carb'ed CDI twins, and cribbed the wrong ignition values

    Yours are the correct numbers.


    - cranking voltage at 11.3 with jump from car

    ...the sparks did not look to be firing in an even pattern.

    ...If this is an even fire motor firing wasted, it should fire every 12th tooth (not counting the inserted 3 teeth), but it seems to have really big gaps, and some very close to each other.

    If my method of scoping the bulb output vs. the CPS output is correct, then the ignition is for sure screwy.

    I'll try to upload pic with 3 sparks where second spark is about 22° after first, then 3rd is about 232° after second. If I can find my timing light bulb, I should be able to confirm visually that they are erratic.

    So.... this is an EMM problem? the orange primary leads come directly from 40 pin in back of EMM, so CDI is integrated?

    What is most cost efficient way to address this? Does someone rebuild these computers?...
    The EMM Ficht system is alternate plug firing on the two cylinder engines, not wasted spark. I managed to confuse myself with the two cylinder carb CDI engines. Sorry about that

    Most everything is integrated into that EMM.

    If the CPS is delivering a proper crank position signal, then the EMM is the likely suspect.

    DFI Technologies is about the only place that works on these Ficht EMM. They tend to charge very little if the EMM is actually OK.

    DFI can also update the EMM firmware to the latest version, and clear any service codes.

    Send DFI the injector serial numbers, and they can confirm the injetcors are the correct match for the EMM (if there is any question).

    As a confirmation, check the stator coil AC voltages and ohms. If these are within spec, then the EMM is the prime suspect.

    There is a possibility that the flywheel magnets have come loose and shifted, but it takes some effort to get the flywheel off to check those magnets.

    If DFI says the EMM is OK, then the story changes, and focus moves to the stator and flywheel.

  5. #5
    Bernie's Avatar
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    39 volts at injectors on cranking??hmm
    Remove he emm and take off the back cover and tell us what you see .You are looking for any signs of corrosion or burn marks .If your spark is all over the place then ship the emm to DFI .Do you get back fire at all ?That is a common fault when they have gone bad
    You may want to change out the mfd with a known good one as a test If you can access one easily .You also need the fawn coloured start solenoid ,as the black one you have will destroy your stator and flywheel area if it stays engaged and your unaware .

    Bernie
    Last edited by Bernie; 06-23-2009 at 05:17 PM. Reason: more info

  6. #6
    Thanks again for the info.

    I talked to Eric at DFI. Very helpful and nice guy. He hadn't heard of this erratic ignition before, but as they say, anything is possible.

    He said no charge to check the unit, and $549 flat rate to fix it if busted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
    39 volts at injectors on cranking??hmm ...
    Sorry... it is actually 25v.... not sure why I typed in 39v.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie View Post
    Do you get back fire at all ?That is a common fault when they have gone bad ...
    Yes....

    Is the black solenoid the reason the starter stuck engaged twice on me?

  7. #7
    Bernie's Avatar
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    Yes the solenoid will fail on you .There is a spring inside the sealed area that is mild steel .The penetrene destroys the rubber seal and the salt water or what ever gets on the spring and corrodes it .It then wont push the buzz bar away when you release the starter button .A good sign that it is U/S is that you will see the seal on the solenoid base protruding out a little .This lets the moisture in .
    Emm is bad .If you had the diagnostics it would say that it is due to spark 2000+degrees BTDC
    I had one do this at about 150hrs

    Bernie

  8. #8
    Thanks for info on solenoid.

    Here is a pic of the ignition events and the crank position sensor output. When zoomed in, you can see that each ignition 'event' includes 4 sparks from CDI.

    This picture is about 390° of rotation. 24 main teeth per revolution, or 15° per tooth. There is also the 3 reference teeth mixed in here, so you actually see 27 humps per rev.

    Anyhow, pretty clear that there were 3 ignition events in this window where only one should have appeared (or 2 if at each end).


  9. #9
    Click avatar for tech links/info, donation request K447's Avatar
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    I believe the Ficht ignition system is multi-strike at low RPM. It fires each spark plug several times per stroke, in rapid succession.

    I have not checked, but I would expect it is also multi-strike during cranking for engine start.

    I agree with Bernie, it looks like the EMM is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by k447
    ...check the stator coil AC voltages and ohms. If these are within spec, then the EMM is the prime suspect.

    There is a possibility that the flywheel magnets have come loose and shifted, but it takes some effort to get the flywheel off to check those magnets.

    If DFI says the EMM is OK, then the story changes, and focus moves to the stator and flywheel.
    If you are interested in more background info on Ficht, have a look at the Tigershark Ficht service manual (page 35-41);
    Tigershark TS 1100 Li Service Manual
    Supplement (p/n 2256-137)






  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by K447 View Post
    I believe the Ficht ignition system is multi-strike at low RPM. It fires each spark plug several times per stroke, in rapid succession.

    I have not checked, but I would expect it is also multi-strike during cranking for engine start.

    ...
    Yes, a closeup shows the CDI is sending 4 rapid sparks for each ignition 'event'. Each event or cluster is about 4ms long.

    Questions:
    - Where can I source a fawn colored solenoid, and what color is fawn?
    - How can I tell if I have old style TPS or new style, and where can I source a new one?
    - Do you know Part Numbers for these?

    Here is a picture of the EMM under the large plate. Looks like there was a bit of a sizzle session under the potting. It would be great to know what caused this, or if there is something to change?:



    Thanks again for the help.

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