06-24-2009, 02:45 PM #1
Water/Methanol injection system should be running this weekend
Been a while since this topic has had any action.
I will have the water/methanol system for my R-12X finished up by this weekend and on the lake for testing by Saturday if all goes well.
Hardest part is keeping key components water free.
Going to be running a 30/70 meth/water concentration to start with. Also going to be running the cheapest 91 octane gas I can find. No reason to run high octane with water/meth injection.
Meth system turns on at 9psi and progressively increases spray as boost rises from there.
Manual boost controller installed
Boost gauge of course
CNC'd pump wedge
R&D Intake grate
and PRE-Racing built prototype over boost unit. Retail will be about $150.00 for this unit
The over-boost unit is basically an electronic device that fools the ecu into allowing you to run higher boost. (exactly what a macsboost module does) I have talked about the ups and downs to this in the past. The main down is that you run high timing with chance of detonation, so most people combat this with race fuel. That gets way too expensive and makes no sense to me frankly. Water/Meth is a great way to reduce intake air temp charges and raise octane points.
No need for race gas
No need for aftermarket intercoolers (which still heat soak after a while anyways)
No need for high octane pump gas
Ill post back with results and hopefully some vids as well. Main problem is my water proof camera battery wont hold a charge for long.
I have another R-12X that is mainly stock so should be a great comparison. The only mod it has is an intake grate.
So once everything is waterproofed away in cases, tested, and validated I will post back with more information.
Should be a fun weekend!
06-24-2009, 06:33 PM #2
Way to go!!!
Keep us posted.
06-24-2009, 09:37 PM #3
Thanks, I will! Just picked up the water proof case to house the electronics in so now it's just a matter of finishing everything up.
06-25-2009, 01:35 PM #4
Trying to keep people informed with what is being discussed in other threads I have running on other forums.
I would like to see more Honda involvement on this forum, but easier said then done.
So with that said here is some click and paste info I wrote earlier:
Octane rating varies on the mixture of Methanol you run. Average octane bump on a 50/50 water/meth injection is 20-25 points. So that would make 92 octane (as high as we have here in NM) 112-117 octane essentially.
We run this with 1000+ RWHP street cars and it works great.
However that is with full engine management which of course most of us are not running on the Ski's.
So on the ski's a lighter dose of say 30/70 water/meth should net at least 15 or so octane points. So around 107 octane in our case. Should be plenty all around
The Methanol will effectively drop the A/F ratio down about .5 to 1 point at that mixture as well as cool the intake air temp charge considerably. It also only sprays under full boost and "should" last most of the day on 1 gallon. Maybe longer but it all depends on how boost happy you are.
Projected boost is 19PSI stable. I realize that valve springs may come into play pretty quick so once I see that the system is functioning properly we will pull the springs out and upgrade them for safety.
We work closely with two of the largest valve spring manufacturer's in the USA so that should not be a big deal to sort out quickly.
Hope that answers your questions.
06-25-2009, 01:36 PM #5
I keep receiving e-mails asking about the electronic boost fooler we are running and what it does. So here is a "click and paste" of an explanation I gave on how they work a while back with some more info added in. It explains how it works and what the pro's and con's are as well.
""1. You are limiting the voltage seen at the ECU and this voltage is set right below the fuel cut or "limp mode" value that the ECU would look for on over boost. So this allows you to run more boost.
Now here's the down side and why aftermarket plug in modules are so limited...
2. When you limit the voltage value to the stock ecu 2 things happen. 1. is listed above, and 2 is that you are locking timing as well. So since the voltage signal to the ECU is set at let's say 12 psi stable, then the timing maps are set for 12 psi stable under WOT. Now when you up the boost with say a macsboost module (since that seems to be all anyone knows) then you have let's say 17.5 psi of boost with a timing map for 12 psi. Now being that Honda (like the Toyota Supra's we so heavily modify here in the shop) are over engineered, you can get away with this to a point. However you are increasing heat, probability of knock, and limiting your margin of safety somewhat.
So understand what these modules do and what their pros and cons are. The reason why high octane fuel is required is because with additional boost and higher degrees of timing you need the higher octane to slow the flame front and add some safety to the combination. If the system actually decreased timing (like a regular stand alone) with the increased boost then you could continue to run it on pump gas up to a point.
If you simply want to fool the ecu and lock the boost max map then I can put together an Electronic Boost Fooler for you with relative ease. Cost again is $150.00 and is a pretty damn easy install. This will do Exactly what a macsboost module does but you will need to run one of our manual boost controller's with it, or source your own. Electronic boost controllers will work just fine and build boost faster, but keeping them dry is another story so manual is the simplest.
WE DO NOT recommend using boost tubes, or boost pills since they are totally unreliable and allow the boost to go up or down depending on atmospheric conditions. IE. Temperature, altitude, load, etc.
Really the best way to have safe consistent boost levels is with an electronic boost controller and I can suggest the proper unit and how to safely waterproof and install it. Costs about $20.00 to water proof it and the unit I prefer running has a built in boost gauge in it as well. So that eliminates needing a boost gauge, however a good electronic boost controller like the HKS EVC6 I am referring to is about $560.00 or so. (we are one of the few authorized HKS PRO DEALERS)
This stuff in all honesty is child's play compared to the race cars we build. Feel free to contact me if you need help with it or want to buy an Electonic Boost Fooler set up to handle your needs. Im just going to nick name it EBF for now.
06-25-2009, 06:53 PM #6
- Join Date
- May 2008
Dont make it sound so complicated its just a voltage clamping circuit. it cost about $12-17 at radio shack. and the circuit alone wont do anything I have one. I made about 3 years ago but without other parts its pointless to sell. I wanted a chip that would boost more than Macs would. but once I boosted past 20psi I needed much more than a chip, bigger turbo exhuast, custom pump,bigger prop,custom intercooler, aftermarket fmu. without these mods the circuit alone is useless as is the exhuast. with the exhuast alone you just rev out extremely quick and with Macs chip even faster
06-25-2009, 07:03 PM #7
- Join Date
- May 2008
you say that this stuff is childsplay coming from another field like cars, like other people in this forum coming from motorcycles and saying the same. but dont think this is easy several companys have tried in the past(2004) like msd, the orient express and others and they said I quote "your beating up a dead horse" when I mentioned I was building a honda. so understand profesionals from every field have treid and failed. and before you start selling parts r&d them if not the people on this site will once they buy them and be brutally honest.
06-25-2009, 11:07 PM #8
Well that was brutally negative of you.
The EBF I am talking about is not a simple $12 voltage clamp. Wish it was. However the principles are similiar in how it works. Not sure how you felt I was making it seem so complicated. Seems to me I am explaining it to the masses so that they understand exactly what it's use is and what it does. The primary discussion in this thread is Water/Meth injection. However you seem to have gotten hung up simply on the boost fooler.
Im not in this to make a bunch of money or re-invent the wheel. Fact is I have several Honda R-12X's and am tired of what little has been done with them. We are talking about INEXPENSIVE modifications that will allow people to run more boost, not need race gas, not need an aftermarket intercooler, not only be able to go full throttle for a minute at a time, and not have to go buck wild to get more power from the ski. Pretty straight forward, pretty simple
Here is a quick click and paste from another forum addressing much of what your saying. Really shows me how fed up people are in this market place with no one doing anything but always promising a lot.
"Granted we are new to the jet ski market and we are not claiming to make your ski faster. What we can do is make a lot more power out of your motor. Hull design, pump design, impeller design, etc. is not my strong suit nor would I ever claim it to be.
However... some of my close friends are World Champion jet ski racers. Some retired, some are right in the thick of it. So I have a lot of outside help when it comes to that sort of thing and in return I help them make power.
The things we are talking about above with Water/Meth, or Electronic Boost controllers, or Electronic Boost Foolers, etc is long since proven technology that just hasn't been applied to our ski's. Some of it has, but it is extremely limited and over priced.
This is a market place with one or two leaders (some doing much more sophisticated upgrades then others) and a TON of followers. People do not fully understand the physics behind the modifications they are making and thus do not understand why they have problems with them. Also a great deal of the products made are super limited and shrouded beneath some bull**** veil of mystery. You ask for pictures of something and no response, you ask for explanations on how something is designed or set up and no response. However I can look at anything being produced and see exactly what it is and what it's pro's and con's are on the spot. (as far as power making is concerned)
I'm not Joe shmo building parts in his spare time in a basement. Not that there is anything wrong with that. We are a company that designs, engineers, and develops go fast parts. I am an internationally known automotive tuner with a huge list of credentials and more machinery at my disposal then a national laboratory.
I am getting more involved in the jet ski industry because it is my passion. I love riding, I love racing, and most of all I love jumping jet ski's. However I find the lack of performance oriented components for our ski's a joke. So I plan to quickly change that.
The modifications I am talking about doing above is very basic in the big picture. All the mods above can be installed in one day and with basic tools. I will have some pics posted up of the Meth kit soon and I am already 95% sure what the outcome will be when on the water.
It is time for a change and honda ski's have a lot of possibility.
"Are the electronic boost "foolers" you're using digital or simple analog voltage clamps?
It'll be interesting to see your results.. Might be a cheaper way to prevent heat soak without going to a $750 Macboost IC."
These are digital, not analog. No dials, no tweaking, install and forget. An analog voltage clamp would be a bleeder setup for instance. A digital fooler would allow the full range of signal from the Denso pressure sensor but clamp it's max output at a value that correlates to the PSI just below the ECM's limp mode."
So hope we are clear.
06-25-2009, 11:20 PM #9
""so understand profesionals from every field have treid and failed. and before you start selling parts r&d them if not the people on this site will once they buy them and be brutally honest.""
People said the same thing in the Toyota Supra community once upon a time. Then we were the first in the world in the 11's, first in the 10's, beaten to the 9's, but then first in the 8's and it took 3 years for anyone to catch us. I have been R&D'ing components, motors, turbo kits, engine management systems and so much more for a very long time. Feel free to google me. Use the search words "Ben Phillips, Obiwan, or the JEDI"
I am not in the habit of designing a product and then allowing the public to do the testing. That would be like what AEM did with their stand alone EMS systems. But that's a whole other story. I always prototype components and test them out on my own toys first and once refined and proven make them available to the market place.
Again this really is simple stuff for us and making some more power for low money on these ski's is not hard. I am just simply helping people out who are interested.
Never claimed to "make your jet ski go 80mph!!" or " huge gains in speed, etc." So to repeat myself: Just more power is the goal, no race gas, no aftermarket intercooler, inexpensive electronics and boost controllers, and more fun factor all around.
The only part that has not seen R&D and extended use testing in this thread is the water/meth on this particular ski. The EBF, and boost controllers, etc. work fine and I have been using them on 4 different ski's for almost 2 years. Not that long sure but I have only owned Honda ski's for 2 or 3 years. That is basic stuff and not rocket science. Water proofing is the toughest part really and finding MIL spec chips that can take the heat and moisture inside the hull is the other. IF you can find all that at Radio shack I am damn impressed, good for you.
Once the water/meth kit is refined and proven then I will offer the kit for sale that we built specifically for the Honda motor and this particular configuration. That way people can simply buy exactly what they need custom tailored to our ski's without any hassle. Or people can use the information and build their own. Not a big deal to me. It is not as simple as just mounting a nozzle and spraying away due to the odd ball setup of the intake and positions for mounting and waterproofing certain components.
06-25-2009, 11:30 PM #10
"I wanted a chip that would boost more than Macs would. but once I boosted past 20psi I needed much more than a chip, bigger turbo exhuast, custom pump,bigger prop,custom intercooler, aftermarket fmu. without these mods the circuit alone is useless as is the exhuast. with the exhuast alone you just rev out extremely quick and with Macs chip even faster"
Let's be clear on that. Mac's chip does not make boost. It allows for more boost and the boost is made by using boost tubes or pills. I explained it's exact function above. It is a voltage clamp or boost fooler by design. Not knocking the product just stating it's exact nature and function. It has pro's and con's. Understanding the con's is what allows us to explore other options, such as water/meth to use that sort of basic modification with what should really be referred to as "clamped timing". That is after all the biggest limiting factor to that sort of modification.
I also never claimed any specific boost factor. Just 17-19 psi stable all day long with no issues is the goal. Pretty straight forward, not shooting for 30 psi with this setup, lol.
Just trying to make sure we are on the same page with everything here.
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