Domestic ignition kits

[785 lugs]

I say we find someone like SBT to rebuild the old stators so all the gen 1 cdi's out there an be reused

[BlueFishCrisis]

I am putting together a package to send to the company that is actively manufacturing aftermarket Polaris 750 CDIs. I am working with them to develop this into a generic Fuji CDI with limp mode and selectable timing curves that will apply to 750s and 780s alike.

I have addressed the domestic ignitions as well, and they are interested. I have a bad CDI and good stator from a 96 SLT 1050 to send. Does anyone have any of the other component configurations they would be willing to send me so I can do this all in one shipment?

Let me know and I will PM you my address.

[K447]

I think it is possible to program a different curve on the limiter circuit. I am going to check into that and try it if I can.

my understanding is that the domestic programmable CDI have two entire timing curves, each of which can be programmed independently and for any curve.

Notes:
Polaris has two different domestic flywheels, normal timing and High Start, with the High Start providing an extra ten degrees of base timing trigger to the Hall Effect sensors.
A 'universal' CDI would need a way to select which flywheel timing to use for the curves.
People have apparently had some luck mis-matching CDI and High Start flywheels by adjusting the timing ring right to the end of the flywheel timing slots. Of course, that leaves no more timing adjustment room, without using a file to lengthen the timing ring bolt slots.

It would be useful to have a single CDI that could handle either two or three cylinder engines. Hall Effect trigger signals are electrically the same, just one less CDI input on the twin engines.

Anyone have a set of the timing files used to program the domestic CDI? Randy had a collection. I wonder if those files could be reverse engineered to extract the curve info

[ZeeC]

I got a guy in illinois who is circuitry dude said hed be willing yo look at it. Hence my wtb a dead cdi. I sent him that picture. Its a lot of crap on that little boars. The board would need to be stamped. Easy. Tons of companys do that. Then its just all the processors and shit. But this can be done and with sbt with stators....this might be possible. Ill keep following up with him.

As you dig into the details, be careful how you define 'this'.

When PVL designed and created these things for Polaris circa 1995, the state of the art was quite different from today. 18 years is a long, long time in electronics tech.

Do you really want to replicate the exact functionality and limitations of the PVL Gen III ignition system, using the same components and designs? Or do you want to re-work the design using more modern parts and technology?

Same can be said for the LR modules. Polaris lists a bunch of minor variations, when a very small number of 'universal' versions (perhaps only one) could cover a wide range of retrofit applications. This is common enough in the automotive and other aftermarket sectors.

I suspect that the only 'proprietary' aspect of the PVL ignitions is the timing curves defined by Polaris for various engine configurations.

Last thing on earth I want is a reversed engineered CDI from 1996. Remember folks computers were only 133Mhz and 8Mb of RAM was a lot of memory back then. We are not talking about a 69 Stingray roadster here, and CDI's are not black magic. Heck there are crazy people using a 20 dollar micro controller as a CDI http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=118556.0

[ZeeC]

Here is another link using a PIC micro controller, and they have code to program it as well.

http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm

Someone tell me that I am stupid to think this is an easy solution?

[jackofalltrades]

Here is what looks like inside the CDI Lugs sent me. Dont see anything as a visual failure. Going to take it to the shop and put it on the scope when I get back from the lake this weekend and see where the failure is.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]306336[/ATTACH]

Im working on possibly having someone make cdis...was this board covered in epoxy or anything?

I was covered in a rubber substance. About as consistent as rigid RTV gasket maker after its cured. Took me about 3 hours to take it apart and clean it off. I am sure I can be done faster knowing where the components lay on the board now. I have a question regarding the CDI: Since the brown wire would not supply the needed 8V to fire up the hall effects sensor would the CDI still function and the ski actually run if you externally applied voltage to the circuit?

[K447]

Here is another link using a PIC micro controller, and they have code to program it as well.

http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm

Someone tell me that I am stupid to think this is an easy solution?

It is that easy.

And it is not that easy.

Ignition product must be environmentally hardened (waterproof, vibration proof, etc).

Hopefully it would be designed to withstand common wiring errors, reversed battery polarity, missing ground connection, etc.

Non-obvious features would include engine shut down hysteresis even when Stop button is pressed momentarily. The Polaris CDI latches the Stop button signal and forces the engine to stop entirely even if the Stop button is released while the engine is still turning over at high RPM.

The 'Red line' RPM Limiter may need to be predictive to ovoid over-revving in sudden no-load situations. 'Soft' RPM limiters can be tricky to get the software parameters just right.

Timing curves need to be vetted against actual examples of the various engines.

Electronics must be designed for manufacturability, including assembly, production line board level testing and QA, packaging (plastic casing, sealant/encapsulation). Then the final product must be functional tested, packaged, inventoried, warehoused, distributed, shipped, invoiced. And warrantied, including process for returns, repairs, etc.

[K447]

... I have a question regarding the CDI: Since the brown wire would not supply the needed 8V to fire up the hall effects sensor would the CDI still function and the ski actually run if you externally applied voltage to the circuit?

In some cases, yes.

If the only failure inside the CDI was the circuit that supplies the 8 volts for the Hall Effect sensors in the stator, then an outside power source for the 8 volts to the Brown stator wire does indeed allow the engine to run.

[jackofalltrades]

... I have a question regarding the CDI: Since the brown wire would not supply the needed 8V to fire up the hall effects sensor would the CDI still function and the ski actually run if you externally applied voltage to the circuit?

In some cases, yes.

If the only failure inside the CDI was the circuit that supplies the 8 volts for the Hall Effect sensors in the stator, then an outside power source for the 8 volts to the Brown stator wire does indeed allow the engine to run.

Thanks. In that case if everything else was functioning in the CDI you could install a DC to DC step-down buck converter and step the 12V DC down to 8V DC and you would have a running ski.

[DeadnBuried]

Whoever figures this out deserves a bronze statue. Reading through this thread I'm wondering if anyone thought of KickStarter for funding this project. There is a ton of talent within this group and in the open source community to get behind this. I'm in Canada so we're not allowed to but I'll certainly contribute. It may be the simplest way to get funding from the group. I agree there is little value trying to reman an old design if it can be made simpler and better with today's tech. The PWC world is different from classic cars where the tendency is to find and keep 'Original'. No one I've met cares, we just wanna ride. But I'll suggest like classic cars and hot rodder's when something catches on Somebody will repop the parts. You can buy a brand new all steel body Mustang from the 60's.

IMHO - Polaris wants us to all go away just like the Avro Arrow, Tucker auto-mobile, and any other reference to great ideas that few know about any more. They washed there hands of it and the reasons don't matter anymore. Emmisions BS aside there is a fundamental point missing: Without inexpensive craft available (ours) how does a 15 year old summer job kid get introduced to this sport without an old running beater at the cottage first? I didn't decide to walk in and have $15k to plunk down to see if I liked watercraft. I rode my first standup at 16 in Nova Scotia, I'm 43 now, and i had not been on one since but, I never forgot and it made a lasting impression. I picked up a few old machines over the last couple years to wrench on and for my two teenager sons and I to enjoy. Many things have become the 'rich man's sport but without the next generation being exposed to and having a little perspective the entire industry falters.

[Keddano]

There is also Rockethub for funding projects. I think Blue fish Crisis's guy that is willing to do the reverse engineering like on the 750 CDi's is the closest thing I seen to being reality. With him I don't think it's a IF,but a When.

DeadnBuried, very good post and point made. I think that is how most of us Polaris nuts on here got started and why this group is so strong. We enjoy the challenge and the hands on part of a fun and affordable sport.

[DeadnBuried]

Thank you, in the meantime I'll keep trolling Ebay.... or maybe just suck it up as a lesson learned.

[Yamaha-Fx17]

Any updates? i cant find an ignition update kit anywhere :/

[DeadnBuried]

First - Martos check ebay - They bought em all

Look like I'm gonna have to make that call too. Now I got 2 down. 1. Hurricane CDI melted, 2. SL 1050 with entire new driveline put in the water and middle cylinder keeps going in and out. Grabbing the meter today and doing the tests.

[ripcuda]

I too hope BFC's guy can make a domestic replacement. I think I'm looking at a bad CDI in my 1200. Got a loaner coming to test it out (Thanks to the Loanee!)

You can buy a batch of new CDI's from PVL... but you gotta buy batch of at least 40... at just over $200 each (cost for that batch quantity... Polaris used to buy much bigger batches and get them cheaper)... plus couple hundred in import fees and shipping. So that's over $8000. Also... all the CDIs come programmed in Polaris' latest revision... which is for High-Start ignitions. So you either have to reprogram them for the non-HS skis (~70ish?)... or advance the flywheel to the end of the adjustment slot (10deg +/-) to make it work.

So yeah... a cheaper alternative like the aftermarket Fuji ones would be awesome!

Cheers!