2002 Genesis not charging battery, EMM tested good

[Chevymike]

Hello everyone, I've posted a few times in the past regarding my 2002 genesis and I appreciate everyone's feedback. 2002 fuel injected ski runs great just doesn't charge.

From everyone's responses I ended up having Darrin at Lakeside tech take a look at my EMM. I shipped him the EMM and he checked it out and said it was working correctly. He did everything in a timely professional manner, kept in contact with me and only charged me the price we had agreed upon prior for diagnosis. I highly recommend him if you need your EMM looked at.

Anyway, skis not charging and I did the stator tests on k447s page and these were my results.

I purchased a new agm group 16 battery and did these tests. First checked all 12 pins with battery disconnected and attached one multimeter lead to the negative cable and checked each pin for continuity and none of the 12 showed continuity which seemed to be the way it's supposed to be.

Next, checked all 6 pairs ohmed out and these were the results.

1 & 12 = 0.6 ohms
2 & 11 = 0.5 ohms
3 & 10 = 0.3 ohms
4 & 9 = 0.3 ohms
5 & 8 = 0.3 ohms

next connected battery and did ac testing

1 & 12 = 6.5 v
2 & 11 = 6.8 v
3 & 10 = 4.5 v
4 & 9 = 4.6 v
5 & 8 = 4.5 v

I know these weren't spot on but are these measurements close enough to justify the stator is working correctly? Where should I go from here regarding not charging? Where I'm located there's very few places who will even look at my genesis just due to the age. All the repair shops seem to only work on UTVs.

I appreciate everyone's feedback.

-Mike

[casey67]

I'm not the Ficht expert. But what makes you think it is not charging?

The service manual is pretty slim as far as charging diag for Ficht.
Most important is having full battery volts at pins 1& 8 of the 8 pin connecter.
Do you have an old school 12v test light to test the connection ?

[Chevymike]

The gauge on the cluster shows it running about 11.8 I verified by connecting my dvom directly to the battery and it showed 12.0 I was hoping the digital display was just reading inaccurate but showed to only be off by .2 volts. I first realized it wasn’t charging because after about 4 hours or so the ski would be dead with a brand new battery. I’ve been trying to find a wiring diagram to see if there’s a solenoid or fusible link or something that could be bad that isn’t allowing the voltage to send a direct signal.

[HiPeRcO]

THIS LINK is helpful.

Its possible that you have a miswired aftermarket stator. Take a look at the wire colors in your stator. The aftermarket ones have different colored wires vs OEM. I think there are at least two sources for stators, THIS LINK describes issues folks have had with one of the variants.

[casey67]

Most important is having full battery volts at pins 1& 8 of the 8 pin connecter.
Do you have an old school 12v test light to test the connection ?

There is a circuit breaker, but looks like other things wouldn't be working,possibly not starting if it was tripped.

Looks to me the EMM needs power on pins 1 & 8 for the 12v circuits, those are fed by that circuit breaker. There is also a splice on that circuit, so it is important for both pins to have full amperage/voltage.

[K447]

There is a circuit breaker, but looks like other things wouldn't be working, possibly not starting if it was tripped.

Looks to me the EMM needs power on pins 1 & 8 for the 12v circuits, those are fed by that circuit breaker. There is also a splice on that circuit, so it is important for both pins to have full amperage/voltage.

On a Ficht engine the EMM powers the 12 volt circuits to charge the battery.

Unlike the red Polaris carburetor engines, the Ficht EMM does not consume or need 12 volts to operate. The only purpose of the 12 volt connection to the EMM is to charge the battery when the engine is running.

There are a few things required to charge the battery from the EMM. The EMM power section must not be internally damaged. The 8-pin connector pins must not be burned and the wires undamaged. And the 12-pin connection to the Ficht stator coils must be intact and the stator coil phasing must be correct. This last point is what some aftermarket stators have wrong. We have seen two or more or the 12 pins connected to the wrong stator wires.

There is a wire splice connector where multiple red/purple wires are joined. That rarely failed but can be inspected and used as a multi-meter test point. There may also be an inline connector between the 'engine' and the 'body' wire harness sections.

The only circuit breaker between the EMM and the battery is the main Reset Button breaker. Which if tripped would prevent the engine from starting entirely.

[Chevymike]

THIS LINK is helpful.

Its possible that you have a miswired aftermarket stator. Take a look at the wire colors in your stator. The aftermarket ones have different colored wires vs OEM. I think there are at least two sources for stators, THIS LINK describes issues folks have had with one of the variants.

Thanks that first link is awesome, I’ve been trying to find a service manual for sometime but I’m always taken to sketchy websites where I need to pay to download it and I’ve been leery. I came across your post about that yesterday actually and I’m going to look into it this week regarding a miswired stator. A couple years prior to me purchasing it the previous owner had a rebuilt sbt engine installed so it’s possible they could have replaced it while in there. I can’t recall if the ski had ever charged while me owning it. I typically used to only take it out to local lakes on day trips. It’s when I started taking it to the river on multi day trips I noticed the issue. I appreciate everyone’s input. This week I’ll see what I come across and go from there.

[Chevymike]

I really appreciate the input. I wouldn’t be surprised if they pinched a wire or something during the engine install, or cut connector something and its now showing. Ill cut the loom and try to look for any abnormalities. When the second trip I took the ski on it started misfiring and running like crap. Popped the seat and they had cut one of wires to the injectors and butt connected it, and it had came out. So wouldn’t be surprised if something similar is going on with this also.

[K447]

I really appreciate the input. I wouldn't be surprised if they pinched a wire or something during the engine install, or cut connector something and its now showing.

Ill cut the loom and try to look for any abnormalities. When the second trip I took the ski on it started misfiring and running like crap. Popped the seat and they had cut one of wires to the injectors and butt connected it, and it had came out. So wouldn't be surprised if something similar is going on with this also.

I will suggest scanning the entire wire loom for signs of non-factory changes or repairs.

Don't necessarily have to cut all the factory zip ties and extract all the sheathed wiring, just aim a critical eye at every place you might suspect someone might have been messing with the wires.

These Ficht engines really, really need a solid wiring system. Intermittent connections can make you crazy with weird issues that might vary widely in time, conditions and even symptoms.

Butt connections, I only recommend the type that include heat sealing adhesive and heat shrink themselves around the crimped wires. Creates a waterproof and reliable electrical connection.

I was fooled years ago by a 'repaired' battery ground connection to the engine case. Looked factory, really did. Until it failed while on the water.

http://greenhulk.net/showthread.php?t=74410&p=816935&viewfull=1#post816935

[Chevymike]

When I removed the EMM to send out, I found the bulk harness had been zip tied about about inch and a half or so. Is that factory or is that something the shop did when they removed the motor? I could imagine something like that causing major issues. It’s a shame to see such shoddy work, no one seems to take pride in there work anyway. I guess I’m just so dumbfounded because the ski runs great. Never any issues with starting, flickering display or anything like that indicating to me there could be an issue like that. So hopefully it is just a small broken wire that won’t allow it to charge.

[K447]

When I removed the EMM to send out, I found the bulk harness had been zip tied about about inch and a half or so. Is that factory ...

Not following you - what was zip tied how?

[casey67]

On a Ficht engine the EMM powers the 12 volt circuits to charge the battery.

Unlike the red Polaris carburetor engines, the Ficht EMM does not consume or need 12 volts to operate. The only purpose of the 12 volt connection to the EMM is to charge the battery when the engine is running.

There are a few things required to charge the battery from the EMM. The EMM power section must not be internally damaged. The 8-pin connector pins must not be burned and the wires undamaged. And the 12-pin connection to the Ficht stator coils must be intact and the stator coil phasing must be correct. This last point is what some aftermarket stators have wrong. We have seen two or more or the 12 pins connected to the wrong stator wires.

There is a wire splice connector where multiple red/purple wires are joined. That rarely failed but can be inspected and used as a multi-meter test point. There may also be an inline connector between the 'engine' and the 'body' wire harness sections.

The only circuit breaker between the EMM and the battery is the main Reset Button breaker. Which if tripped would prevent the engine from starting entirely.

I'm used to automotive charging systems, they will not charge unless energized. An alternator can spin all day and never make power if it doesnt get energized. A simple connection to the battery will get things going.

[K447]

I'm used to automotive charging systems, they will not charge unless energized. An alternator can spin all day and never make power if it doesnt get energized. A simple connection to the battery will get things going.

Alternator uses battery current to create the necessary initial magnetic field to generate AC power.

Stator with a rotating permanent magnet flywheel is not like an alternator. The magnets are always magnetized and the stator coils are always in the field so flywheel rotation always generates AC output.

Unlike a typical 3 phase automotive alternator the Ficht stator has 5 coils, but also very unlike a car alternator, the Ficht stator has all five coils in-phase. All five Ficht coils generate peak AC voltage at the same instant (same crank angles) and do so multiple times per crank revolution.

Two stator coil outputs showing the outputs in-phase.

The Ficht EMM power section uses complex switching circuits to not only rectify the five separate AC voltages to DC but at the same time 'voltage stack' the five coil outputs. This is how the Ficht system gets more than 20 volts DC (at a few amps) from a set of stator coils that during cranking are putting out only 5 to 7 volts each (and those are measured with no load).

The problem occurs when the stator coils are incorrectly wired to the 12-pin connector. When the outputs are stacked if one or more coils is mis-wired with the opposite phase the result is that the out-of-phase coil(s) subtract from the total voltage instead of adding together. So the aggregate DC voltage out of the EMM to power the fuel injectors is much lower than it should be.

[casey67]

DOOHHHH ! Overlooked the Permanent magnets.
After 30 years of constant DC electricity theory/operation, I've become totally DC programed and constantly stumble with AC electric operation. But getting better every day.

I picked up a Genesis I that had 2 wires switched on the aftermarket stator.

Thankyou for clearing that up.

[Chevymike]

Not following you - what was zip tied how?

i meant to say the main harness with the wiring going to the major connected on the EMM has zip ties holding the loom tight about every inch and a half. Does that sound factory? I can try to get a picture of it later. If it’s not I wonder if they did a “repair” in that loom somewhere.