Modifications, will they affect warranty? A must read!

[Green Hulk]

This is a topic I see come up all the time both on Facebook and here on the GreenHulk.net forum so I decided to make a post to provide accurate information and dispel some myths associated with installing modifications and voiding warranty.

There is a HUGE misconception that if you install a modification on your ski you void your skis warranty. This is simply not true.

I hear guys saying they are scared to even install an intake grate because the dealer told them it will VOID their skis warranty. Not true!

I hear others saying, “once my warranty is expired I will install an air intake kit.” Well guess what guys? An air intake kit is NOT going to void your entire skis warranty.

How many of you had dealers tell you that you MUST bring your ski to them for maintenance work, otherwise you risk voiding your skis warranty? This is absolutely not true, and illegal. There is a law protecting us consumers called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states that for your dealer to deny warranty coverage on a failed item it must be determined that the modification actually caused the failure. It also states that you can do your own maintenance work.

Lets say you install an air intake kit on your ski, or an intercooler, an intake manifold upgrade, etc. and your instrument cluster goes out, or you have a sensor go bad, or you have a trim piece break. There is no way possible that an air intake, intercooler, intake manifold upgrade, etc. would have caused any of those failures so your dealer cannot deny warranty coverage on that failed item. In fact, it's illegal for them to do so, as per the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that protects us.

Let's say you heavily modify your ski, tune the ECU, install many supporting mods and run the engine at 9000 RPM day in and day out and you get some bad fuel on the water one day and you end up detonating your motor. Well, you can bet your dealer is going to deny warranty coverage to fix your motor, but you DO NOT lose your entires ski's warranty. If your steering breaks, instrument cluster goes out, trim piece fails, sensor fails, etc., those items would still be covered.

Basically, for an item to not be covered under warranty it would have to be determined that the modification caused the failure.

I consulted with Brian at RIVA, who is their tech support representative and asked him about a modification voiding warranty and this is what he had to say about it:

"Whether or not any modification to your craft voids the warranty can only be determined by the manufacturer. In most cases that means that the servicing dealer determines what constitutes a warrantable repair. If any modification to a craft causes a failure it can be ground for denying a repair under warranty. For this reason at RIVA we thoroughly test all of our products before they are released to the public. Any systems unaffected by a modification are still covered by the OEM warranty. For example, a re-flash in the ECU will not cause a failure of the steering system or the hull to crack. Note also that warranty repair should only be denied if the modification caused the failure. Any failures caused by a defect in the original parts or manufacture are still warrantable under the express terms of the OEM manufacture's warranty."


There's lots of great info on the internet regarding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and I encourage you to do your own research.

This particular video stood out to me as Rich from K&N talks about warranty and the Magnuson-Moss act. As many of you already know, we use K&N filters in many of the air intake kits available for our PWC applications.

https://youtu.be/YKv_IXqTJ3M

This is another very informative, but long video explaining the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

I hope this information helps you and keeps you from being taken advantage of by a dealer. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage!

Best Regards,
Jerry Gaddis
"GreenHulk"

[Carzan]

Until a representative from Yamaha, Sea-Doo and Kawasaki put out a statement in writing that aftermarket parts and modifications will not void warranty this post is only the opinion of those who have something to gain ($$$$) by selling those exact aftermarket parts and modifications. Don't mean to be confrontational but I happen to deal with one of the world's largest manufacturers of automobiles every day for the last 30 years, and the fact remains, if they choose to decline your repair because you have modified the unit, you can't really do a thing unless you have the resources and drive to fight them in the lengthy court process. There are no Magnuson Moss Act Police to call when you get turned down. Modify at your own risk! It is true that in many instances the dealer can make the determination. However, in todays world pictures are sent in for documentation and defective parts are retrieved by the manufacturer for verification of cause for repair. and occasionally engineers are sent out to inspect prior to the repair on a warranty claim simply as a spot check process. If a dealer is found to be too liberal in their approval process they will be charged back for the cost of any and all suspect repairs after a complete warranty audit is performed on that dealer. So it isn't in the dealers interest to try to cheat the system. Dealers get PAID to perform warranty repairs, they aren't going to turn something down just because they want to be mean to you or they don't like you. They NEED that work to survive. When you put a part on your ski everything that part effects can be considered non-warrantable. And exactly what it effects is not your decision, it's the decision of the guys writing the check on a warranty claim. Modify at your own risk.

[Green Hulk]

Jay, I know you've got many years experience in the automotive industry and serve as a General Manager of a Toyota dealership and I appreciate your perspective from a dealers standpoint, but I don't like your accusation that this post was written because I have something to gain, "($$$$)"

I chose to write this post because I see so much misinformation and I wanted to educate consumers that we do have rights, and we have a law put in place to protect those rights.

Thankfully, there are many dealers out there that are very mod friendly, and even sell and install modifications on customers skis and won't try to get over on them in the event a part fails that was not caused by the installation of a modification, but in the Powersports industry there are many unscrupulous dealers that will take advantage of us if we allow it. We all know that the dealer gets paid peanuts on warranty labor as opposed to what he can charge the customer directly and for this reason a dealer can be inclined to say that he cannot cover warranty on a failed item and charges the customer cash directly.

Yes, it's at the dealers discretion, and ultimately the manufacturers decision on whether or not a warranty claim is to be paid, but they cannot legally deny coverage on a failed part if the modification(s) installed on the ski did not cause said failure. No, there are no "magnuson moss act police" to call if they get turned down, and sadly many dealers will use that standpoint to their advantage, but push come to shove, a consumer can lawyer up and win this battle as they have the Magnuson-Moss law on their side.

Until a representative from Yamaha, Sea-Doo and Kawasaki put out a statement in writing that aftermarket parts and modifications will not void warranty this post is only the opinion of those who have something to gain ($$$$) by selling those exact aftermarket parts and modifications. Don't mean to be confrontational but I happen to deal with one of the world's largest manufacturers of automobiles every day for the last 30 years, and the fact remains, if they choose to decline your repair because you have modified the unit, you can't really do a thing unless you have the resources and drive to fight them in the lengthy court process. There are no Magnuson Moss Act Police to call when you get turned down. Modify at your own risk! It is true that in many instances the dealer can make the determination. However, in todays world pictures are sent in for documentation and defective parts are retrieved by the manufacturer for verification of cause for repair. and occasionally engineers are sent out to inspect prior to the repair on a warranty claim simply as a spot check process. If a dealer is found to be too liberal in their approval process they will be charged back for the cost of any and all suspect repairs after a complete warranty audit is performed on that dealer. So it isn't in the dealers interest to try to cheat the system. Dealers get PAID to perform warranty repairs, they aren't going to turn something down just because they want to be mean to you or they don't like you. They NEED that work to survive. When you put a part on your ski everything that part effects can be considered non-warrantable. And exactly what it effects is not your decision, it's the decision of the guys writing the check on a warranty claim. Modify at your own risk.

[Carzan]

Sorry for the accusation! I didn't mean it to be taken that way and I apologize. As for warranty rate, there are laws that govern that also. as an example my door rate is $125 per hour and my warranty rate is $104 per hour. Sounds like I am taking a hit to do warranty work doesn't it? But the fact remains that once discounts are calculated for express service and other work where we discount labor rates to accommodate customers and sell jobs, our effective labor rate is actually under $100 per hour. So warranty is actually my friend. I never have to discount warranty work period. Now I and many other dealers will go to extremes to try to get an issue covered for a customer. but the way warranty is actually written and the policies and procedures involved in claiming warranty work along with the fact that every time business slows up and manufacturers begin looking for cash they always start doing warranty audits first, all of that makes filing an "iffy" claim very very risky. One bad claim can trigger a two year audit and end up costing a dealer six figures if they haven't been dotting all the i's and crossing all the T's. It is the manufacturer's decision, period. They are writing the checks. you can tell them you disagree or the law states such and such. They will simply respond with engineer's opinions and restate that the claim is denied. Sure you can take it further, but you will need the cash to fund the lawsuit. there aren't many attorneys willing to take this type of suit on their own balance sheet, there's just no money in it for them. I do see these types of claims turned down by manufacturers regularly. Not Toyota as much but we also have three other franchises and just try putting a chip in your diesel truck and if ford or chevy find out you won't even be able to get a fuel pump replaced if they realize that chip is there. And they will, due to the fact that those onboard computers are basically like a "Black Box" on an airliner. They are constantly recording every parameter associated with the vehicles operation. Lifted trucks are another hotbed of issues when it comes to warranty claims.
I do agree that Mangusson Moss act is there to protect consumers. It just doesn't always work like it should. I see statements accusing Dealers of wrongdoing all over this site including in your original post. I believe folks need to slow down and realize, the dealer doesn't make a dime if he can't get it covered. Most people don't have the cash it takes to repair their car so I would imagine the number who have the cash to repair their ski is even less. But don't blame the dealers. I promise most of them are doing the best they can in a very challenging environment.

I am not in the business of watercraft so I have NO personal experience with those manufacturers. But I would be willing to bet the farm they operate in a very similar manner.

Again, I apologize for my wording and didn't mean to imply that you are anything but a stand-up guy.


EDIT STARTS HERE: I want to also state that I am not saying all the information green hulk posted concerning warranty coverage is incorrect in any way. I am also NOT saying you shouldn't mod your ski. That is your personal choice. I also see many many instances where manufacturers have covered things that were no doubt affected by a modification without ever asking a question. I do suggest using a dealer who is reputable and maybe even having a discussion with them about their experience in this particular arena.

[kazsak]

Yes it is against the law but auto dealers do it all the time. I have an auto warranty issue now and is going thru arbitration to force them to pay. Their denial reason is comical stating wheel spacers caused extra stress on transmission fluid which broke the transmission. One can’t even see any difference on the transmission temp with the spacers. It all comes down to money and mfg lawyers will screw you as much as they can. Yes I am paying out of pocket and have incurred over $8k in lawyer fees and arbitration fees. Most people won’t pursuit it.

[TurboX]

Basically he with the most money to pay lawyers will win, no lawyer will take on a case like this relying only on payment if you win. Mag Moss act is indeed a sales pitch heavily endorsed and used by SEMA.

Ive never read or studied the MM Act, does it cover anything beyond automotive ? Just Googled and see its any customer product with a warranty.

[kazsak]

For car, retainer fee was $5k, arbitration was $1700. Do factory warranty requires arbitration as settlement method. Usually a demand letter works but if not I am sure you can win in court as they need to proof the mod caused the failure. Just a headache

[kmaher]

Not just the dealer, but the manufacturer makes a tremendous difference in how warranty claims are handled.

I bought a 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution brand new, and at 5,000 miles, experienced a clutch, transfer box, and transmission failure. The dealer posted a red flag associated with the VIN because I had a nitrous intercooler sprayer installed (Not even introducing nitrous to the motor, mind you...just using it to cool the charged air). At the end of the day, they refused to perform the warranty work, I went to arbitration, and they stalled for time. It was a clever move for them, because it was my daily driver at the time. They held out for about two months, at which time I gave in. Mitsubishi did all they could to protect their profits in that instance, and I ended up just paying for a new OEM parts out of pocket, which have now lasted 120k+ miles, only replacing the clutch at 100k miles when doing some heavy performance modifications. Bottom line, I learned that Mitsubishi was NOT fond of providing warranty service, especially for the Evo and other performance variants of vehicles they produced. That's why I waited for its warranty to be over at 100k miles before really seeking additional performance.

Yamaha, on the other hand, seems to be a little more customer focused. I've deliberately kept my 1800 very mild to prevent warranty issues, but my dealer knows it's tuned. Like clockwork. I destroy clutches every 40 hours (Yes, before you ask, it's my riding style. And no, I won't change my riding style). They've replaced 3 so far, and have given me no indication they won't continue to do so until my YES warranty expires. The only thing they questioned was the Motorcraft oil filter I had used versus Yamaha, and advised I use Yamaha oil filters from that point forward to prevent any question of warranty validity. Yes, I know they can't do that, but at $20, I may as well use them so no one can raise an eyebrow.

I'd love to have an 80+ MPH 1800, but it just isn't worth the risk to me. After taking a $14,000 hit during my late-twenties with the Mitsubishi incident, I learned my lesson. Even with Yamaha appearing much more consumer-friendly, I don't want to push those limits, because I'm one of those folks that lives life experiencing nothing but Murphy's Law.

[kazsak]

Couldn't you fix the car and still go thru arbitration? That is what I am doing

[kmaher]

Couldn't you fix the car and still go thru arbitration? That is what I am doing

Technically, yes...In my case, Mitsubishi had provided me a 30% discount on parts and labor, and arbitration eventually reached the point where the arbitrator thought that was a "fair" move by them. The forensic analysis of my failed components left things a bit ambiguous. My failure was either caused by abrupt fluid loss from the compoents OR excessive output shaft pressure, blah blah blah....I can't even remember - a lot of technical jargon, and I'm not a mechanic. Basically, heat fused everything together. It was either from fluid loss or me making SO much power in a launch that I fused everything together, and instead of the clutch failing, EVERYTHING did. The kicker, and in fairness to Mitsubishi, I get the concern....I had previously had the car serviced by an outside individual, who had replaced my stock clutch with an aftermarket. So, was it an assembly error by the person who had serviced the transmission that caused this, or a stock defect?

At the time, my car was on the freeway, just driving along, not on a drag strip, and at the time, my car didn't make enough power to grenade a transfer case. Completely stock motor, just a cat-back exhaust and tune - 302 awhp. Quick, but not destructively powerful, that's for sure. The clutch was heavy duty, but still single disk - nothing indestructible. There was overwhelming evidence that their "excessive power from a launch" theory didn't hold up.

Anyway, the concept that the outside tech who completed the clutch work could have caused the fluid leak held up. It became an "It's his fault" / "No, it's the manufacturer's fault" scenario, and it couldn't be proven, so who makes the perfect scapegoat? The customer...

I'm still salty, if you can't tell.

I still own that car, and I love it, but I was done being a Mitsubishi customer at that point. Before then, I had purchased 6 new cars from them, so you would think they would treat me with a modicum of favor. They make (well, made.....now days they aren't so amazing) a really impressive machine, but they didn't give a loyal customer the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway, I think this is a perfect example of how the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act can blow up in your face. Mitsubishi DEFINITELY couldn't prove that it wasn't their defect that caused the failure, and they were able to cast enough circumstantial doubt that they didn't have to cover it. This also casts some concern over performing your own work, and how that can blow up in your face. The mechanic's testimony that they had done everything by the book meant nothing.

I still don't know who was at fault for the failure 14 years ago, but I know it wasn't me. Yet, I'm the one who ended up paying for it.

[kazsak]

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds about right they offer something but not what you are entitled to. To get that you have to take them to court not arbitration. Both parties are at risk and if you lose, mfg can try to recover their lawyer fees I believe! It is the principle for me as they are trying to get away with as many denials as possible to save money. I call it situational ethics. If it is few bucks sure no problem, if it is $50k, hell no!

I am paying entire repair out of pocket to fix my car while awaiting arbitration and they are making it as hard as possible for me. It has been 10 months.

[john belton]

I will offer my 2 Cents on this Post.

Over many many years I have owned all kinds of YAMs, KAWs, and Sea Doos, and I have never had any issues with a WARR Claim for any one of these PWC's that had traditional Bolt On parts like plates, grates, or air intakes.

I will also add that I have extremely good post ride practices in taking care of my PWC's! So in a WARR Claim situation it is very clear that the unit has not been abused and is well taken care of. JB

[mario]

I’ll asked my Sedoo dealer when I was picking up my ski about warranty versus modding, and he said that as soon you tune Ecu warranty’s are voided.

[mario]

And I didn’t have better luck with Yamaha either, I did blow engine in Yamaha snowmobile this winter. Sled was under warranty and it was modded, nothing crazy, intake , exhaust, clutch work and tune. I brought sled back to dealer it has no compression on middle cylinder, first thing that they said to me was that Yamaha want them to send Ecu back to them. And they refused to work on motor under warranty, I have paid for new motor on my own expense. So my advice for those who want to modify their machines and hope for warranty coverage is either keep stock or forget about warranty!

[hhrlt24]

i don't think you guys understand the Act. Its only protects if you use non manufacture's parts. If you modify it different than what the manufactured designed yes they can deny coverarge. You add wheel spacers on car, even larger wheels, you add a after market intake that replaces the factory completely. On boats or PWC you add different propeller than what is spec it can be a issue, they can deny coverage.

All the law does is say if you replace a part not made by the manufacture but is identical in everyway they can't say that it caused the damage and they can't force you to use their parts for the warranty to be valid.